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Can somebody test this?

AuthorMessage
Lieutenant
May 09, 2013
157
If you keep up on forum posts, you know that there are a whole lot of complaints about buccaneers with tide 2 hitting bucklers even when they have high dodge. I've had enough with the debate; I want to settle this once and for all. I want somebody to attack a 135 dodge buckler with no equipment on with a 110 accuracy buccaneer with no equipment. Compare hit rates without and with turn the tide. Then increase the buckler dodge to 160 then 185 and see what happens. Make a record of how many times the bucc wins vs how many times the buckler wins in each of the three cases.

Then, try pitting a pete with vengeance 3 against a fan with relentless and riposte 3 (don't train any other epics or talents). Train relentless on fan because pete naturally comes with relentless. Then make a record of how many times each wins without using any of their buffs or critical hits. If you really want to experiment, try using black fog on fan and coming out with her super hit. While she is hidden use whale's might on pete and use his super hit after fan uses hers.

I for one want actual evidence when people say things like "pete ko'ed my full health buckler in one turn" or "high dodge means nothing in pvp." Perhaps there is a bug that causes strength to affect accuracy even though it shouldn't, because in theory a 185 dodge buckler should dodge well over half of a 110 accuracy bucc's attacks.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
bluba4 on Sep 4, 2015 wrote:
If you keep up on forum posts, you know that there are a whole lot of complaints about buccaneers with tide 2 hitting bucklers even when they have high dodge. I've had enough with the debate; I want to settle this once and for all. I want somebody to attack a 135 dodge buckler with no equipment on with a 110 accuracy buccaneer with no equipment. Compare hit rates without and with turn the tide. Then increase the buckler dodge to 160 then 185 and see what happens. Make a record of how many times the bucc wins vs how many times the buckler wins in each of the three cases.

Then, try pitting a pete with vengeance 3 against a fan with relentless and riposte 3 (don't train any other epics or talents). Train relentless on fan because pete naturally comes with relentless. Then make a record of how many times each wins without using any of their buffs or critical hits. If you really want to experiment, try using black fog on fan and coming out with her super hit. While she is hidden use whale's might on pete and use his super hit after fan uses hers.

I for one want actual evidence when people say things like "pete ko'ed my full health buckler in one turn" or "high dodge means nothing in pvp." Perhaps there is a bug that causes strength to affect accuracy even though it shouldn't, because in theory a 185 dodge buckler should dodge well over half of a 110 accuracy bucc's attacks.
Dodge really does matter when faced with Talent attacks, I'm willing to help with the research. I have a 203 dodge ATM, but can easily reduce this. Let me know where and when.
Gunner's Mate
Aug 08, 2010
288
bluba4 on Sep 4, 2015 wrote:
If you keep up on forum posts, you know that there are a whole lot of complaints about buccaneers with tide 2 hitting bucklers even when they have high dodge. I've had enough with the debate; I want to settle this once and for all. I want somebody to attack a 135 dodge buckler with no equipment on with a 110 accuracy buccaneer with no equipment. Compare hit rates without and with turn the tide. Then increase the buckler dodge to 160 then 185 and see what happens. Make a record of how many times the bucc wins vs how many times the buckler wins in each of the three cases.

Then, try pitting a pete with vengeance 3 against a fan with relentless and riposte 3 (don't train any other epics or talents). Train relentless on fan because pete naturally comes with relentless. Then make a record of how many times each wins without using any of their buffs or critical hits. If you really want to experiment, try using black fog on fan and coming out with her super hit. While she is hidden use whale's might on pete and use his super hit after fan uses hers.

I for one want actual evidence when people say things like "pete ko'ed my full health buckler in one turn" or "high dodge means nothing in pvp." Perhaps there is a bug that causes strength to affect accuracy even though it shouldn't, because in theory a 185 dodge buckler should dodge well over half of a 110 accuracy bucc's attacks.
I don't think i can test it, but i definitely agree. There is a mechanic (though it is probably not intended) that increases the chance of you hitting with a higher strength attribute. Especially with a critical. My bonnie anne had a 10% critical buff and sky spirit. She ended up going super crit twice against a toro with espirit, but no agility buffs, But my bonnie was reduced, so that was a fluke and she shouldn't have hit in the first place.
Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
From my experience with my Buck (currently 27-0), when I go against a Swashbuckler I still tend to miss a lot. The reason for the complaints is that players are expecting to dodge every single hit just because they have 100 more dodge than my accuracy. However, that is NOT how it works. I remember KI saying that no matter how low an unit's accuracy gets, there will always be a small chance of a hit landing. This is why even with the -100% accuracy from Sandstorm, a companion can still land their regular attacks.

That actual chance could be anything, we don't know. For all we know, that minimum chance of a hit landing could be as high as 40% or as low as 10% or change depending on class (higher for Muskets, lower for Witches for example).

That's why I think is silly when I see players relying on dodge instead of shielding when attacking me. I can't tell you the amount of matches I have won because a Swashbuckler in elusive 3 thought there was no possible way I could hit him with my vengeance strike or relentless, or even bladestorm 3 which actually works differently by taking your main stat instead of accuracy to calculate your hitting chance.

Players tend to conveniently ignore those hits that did not land and that's why you see so many complains. Let's say the minimum chance of a Buccanner landing a hit is 20%. I attack you with a Vicious. The initial hit is guaranteed to hit. That hit procs my Follow Through (which misses) and one of my relentless (which also misses). Then my glancing blow (guaranteed hit) criticals on you. Bladestorm lands (calculated off my strength rather than accuracy) but then the relentless following the bladestorm misses. Out of 4 non-guaranteed hits, I landed ONE in the bladestorm hit. One out of four would fit pretty close to that minimum 20% chance of a hit landing. Yet my opponent will start complaining to me and say I got lucky for landing that bladestorm and conveniently forgets the follow through and 2 relentless that I missed.
Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Of course, there are times when an opponent genuinely gets lucky and lands all their hits on the Swashbuckler with 200+ dodge, but that's the nature of luck. It doesn't happen ALL the time like people are pretending it does.

Same example that I described above works for Criticals too. People will complain about criticals because they remember the attacks/heals that critical but forget about the dozen in between powers that did not critical. It makes sense too though, as some criticals are more game chancing than others. You're more likely to remember that critical assassin that your opponent landed on you than you are to remember that critical relentless hit your companion landed on him the turn before, simply because one has a bigger impact than the other, even if both criticals had about the same chance of happening. Same applies for hit and misses.

Either way, I'm willing to run this test for you as I myself want to know what that "minimum" chance to hit would be and how much the amount of accuracy/dodge actually affects those chances. I should have time this weekend to run some tests.
Lieutenant
May 09, 2013
157
I'm available only on the weekends right now. What time are people on tomorrow (Saturday)? Which realm should we be in? Obviously spar chamber would be the best location.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Alex Hawkins on Sep 4, 2015 wrote:
From my experience with my Buck (currently 27-0), when I go against a Swashbuckler I still tend to miss a lot. The reason for the complaints is that players are expecting to dodge every single hit just because they have 100 more dodge than my accuracy. However, that is NOT how it works. I remember KI saying that no matter how low an unit's accuracy gets, there will always be a small chance of a hit landing. This is why even with the -100% accuracy from Sandstorm, a companion can still land their regular attacks.

That actual chance could be anything, we don't know. For all we know, that minimum chance of a hit landing could be as high as 40% or as low as 10% or change depending on class (higher for Muskets, lower for Witches for example).

That's why I think is silly when I see players relying on dodge instead of shielding when attacking me. I can't tell you the amount of matches I have won because a Swashbuckler in elusive 3 thought there was no possible way I could hit him with my vengeance strike or relentless, or even bladestorm 3 which actually works differently by taking your main stat instead of accuracy to calculate your hitting chance.

Players tend to conveniently ignore those hits that did not land and that's why you see so many complains. Let's say the minimum chance of a Buccanner landing a hit is 20%. I attack you with a Vicious. The initial hit is guaranteed to hit. That hit procs my Follow Through (which misses) and one of my relentless (which also misses). Then my glancing blow (guaranteed hit) criticals on you. Bladestorm lands (calculated off my strength rather than accuracy) but then the relentless following the bladestorm misses. Out of 4 non-guaranteed hits, I landed ONE in the bladestorm hit. One out of four would fit pretty close to that minimum 20% chance of a hit landing. Yet my opponent will start complaining to me and say I got lucky for landing that bladestorm and conveniently forgets the follow through and 2 relentless that I missed.
On the other hand, many of the matches I've won has come down to my dodge vs their accuracy. ( and, of course, FS, riposte & my relentless-bladestorm combo. )
"How can you keep hitting?" said a frustrated buck.
"What is up with that dodge" said a WD who thought she had reduced my dodge with Ratbeard and Bonnie Anne. ( ah, that was a giggle-fest for me )
Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
Paper tigers tsk tsk tsk....

Virtuous Dante Ramsey
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
The real problem here is that the bucklers are sacrificing their dodge oriented gear for shields. Which is a very sound strategy to be sure. But that lowers their dodge almost down to its base. Fact is I have barely seen any bucklers in pvp with much more than ~140. So its no wonder that tide 2 would allow bucks to hit them more often. Dont blame bucks or whine about dodge not being good enough. You choose your own gear and choose armor over the proper level of dodge. My buckler has 180 dodge and elusive 3 (thanks to my pet + training) and he almost never gets hit once below half. So idk what they are all whining about. I agree with this post. A lot of the buckler whining we have been hearing lately is unfounded.
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Alex Hawkins on Sep 4, 2015 wrote:
From my experience with my Buck (currently 27-0), when I go against a Swashbuckler I still tend to miss a lot. The reason for the complaints is that players are expecting to dodge every single hit just because they have 100 more dodge than my accuracy. However, that is NOT how it works. I remember KI saying that no matter how low an unit's accuracy gets, there will always be a small chance of a hit landing. This is why even with the -100% accuracy from Sandstorm, a companion can still land their regular attacks.

That actual chance could be anything, we don't know. For all we know, that minimum chance of a hit landing could be as high as 40% or as low as 10% or change depending on class (higher for Muskets, lower for Witches for example).

That's why I think is silly when I see players relying on dodge instead of shielding when attacking me. I can't tell you the amount of matches I have won because a Swashbuckler in elusive 3 thought there was no possible way I could hit him with my vengeance strike or relentless, or even bladestorm 3 which actually works differently by taking your main stat instead of accuracy to calculate your hitting chance.

Players tend to conveniently ignore those hits that did not land and that's why you see so many complains. Let's say the minimum chance of a Buccanner landing a hit is 20%. I attack you with a Vicious. The initial hit is guaranteed to hit. That hit procs my Follow Through (which misses) and one of my relentless (which also misses). Then my glancing blow (guaranteed hit) criticals on you. Bladestorm lands (calculated off my strength rather than accuracy) but then the relentless following the bladestorm misses. Out of 4 non-guaranteed hits, I landed ONE in the bladestorm hit. One out of four would fit pretty close to that minimum 20% chance of a hit landing. Yet my opponent will start complaining to me and say I got lucky for landing that bladestorm and conveniently forgets the follow through and 2 relentless that I missed.
I agree. There also might be a slight psychological thing as well since vicious strike technically hits twice even though its one move. That double hit allows a double chance at blade storms and relentless's etc. So it might seem like bucks hit a lot. But really they just SWING a lot. Hehe...they are like babe ruth. Sure they hit bunches but they also hold the highest miss records as well :D