anecorbie on Oct 17, 2015 wrote:

Mr. Sunhammer's wish seems to be that any action taken under a cloak should break that cloak no matter what the results of that action is.
I'm against this idea completely, and for many reasons:
When I attack someone wearing VA and the damage from my attack is utterly absorbed by that Armor, why should I be exposed? In this case its hardly "double-dipping", it is as if the attack never happened or that it was blocked or dodged. In fact, I lose a turn and that power is removed from my deck. ( As being already used. )
Poisons aren't a physical attack - where's the weapon? They aren't a debuff either.
Banners ( as has been said ) are an environmental tool placed on the board, this is in lieu of a personal totem and gives an extra team boost. I should be able to remove it without exposure just as I can in PVE.
However, now we come to purge, and I've heard it suggested that using purge should remove a hide; this makes sense to me - it is a debuff attack. I don't believe that purge itself should remove hide. If this statement seems contradictory, let me explain:
WD "X" uses purge on a hidden buckler to remove buffs: the hide should remain in effect.
SB "Y" uses purge and is exposed while removing the buffs in the affected area.
I hope that's clear.

While I dont mind poison, purge or banner issue, I have to disagree about the VA issue (of course, I'm privy)

We only get a SINGLE VA, having it nearly destroyed by a cloaked swash only to result in.. nothing but a card removed from their deck is ridiculous. How many damage cards do you have, vs our single VA? (not counting gear here).

It has come to a point where I dont bother using VA vs swash, because it's just wasted. I rather use a fort.

anecorbie on Oct 17, 2015 wrote:

Mr. Sunhammer's wish seems to be that any action taken under a cloak should break that cloak no matter what the results of that action is.
I'm against this idea completely, and for many reasons:
When I attack someone wearing VA and the damage from my attack is utterly absorbed by that Armor, why should I be exposed? In this case its hardly "double-dipping", it is as if the attack never happened or that it was blocked or dodged. In fact, I lose a turn and that power is removed from my deck. ( As being already used. )
Poisons aren't a physical attack - where's the weapon? They aren't a debuff either.
Banners ( as has been said ) are an environmental tool placed on the board, this is in lieu of a personal totem and gives an extra team boost. I should be able to remove it without exposure just as I can in PVE.
However, now we come to purge, and I've heard it suggested that using purge should remove a hide; this makes sense to me - it is a debuff attack. I don't believe that purge itself should remove hide. If this statement seems contradictory, let me explain:
WD "X" uses purge on a hidden buckler to remove buffs: the hide should remain in effect.
SB "Y" uses purge and is exposed while removing the buffs in the affected area.
I hope that's clear.

There is no need to exaggerate. I never said heals or buffing or shielding up or any of that other stuff should remove cloaks. All of THOSE things make perfect sense and I see no reason a buckler shouldn't be allowed to do them.

I am against bucklers thwarting everything someone could do try to fight back all while remaining happily hidden. They try to heal...cursed. They try to shield...purged. They try to boost up their summons...its gone. All while remaining hidden. How nice for them.

As to your other points:
1)Valor Armor Why should your be exposed? Because bleeding does still stick to the pirate. And because you have removed basically all of their armor...exposing THEM! Why should they get to be exposed and you not? That seems a little unfair. If your going to remove my armor then you shouldn't get to keep your cloak just so you can hit AGAIN now that I am exposed. However...a counter solution...would be for it to keep you hidden but remove the x2 damage. Like only one x2 damage per cloak. That is as compromise we haven't explored yet.

2) Again, like I said before, this an explanation for why it works that way NOT a REASON WHY it should keep working that way. I gave my reason why it is unfair. Because a player gives up a lot to bring in a banner. And making it so it can be destroyed so easily cheapens that cost and is effectively diminishing the viability of a banner in PvP combat. And so most of my character dont use banners when several might consider it if it wasn't for this glaring weakness.

3) As for this one. Its an interesting compromise. And it could work if you made purge an "attack" of some sort. Essentially forcing it to remove the cloak if the buckler casts it but not if the witch casts it. However...I dont see why a witch shouldn't be able to remove a cloak. They have no amor...no shields...no heals. Their hits can hit regardless of if they cloaked anyway...so if they wanna remove a cloak instead of hitting i dont see why not.

Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 18, 2015 wrote:

Well...if you dont see it as op then your not pvp'ing at higher levels or aren't familiar with the top bucklers. They all have 4 things and it makes them un-stopable. Purge amulet, 2-3 forts, witch hunter and in most cases Nausica as a companion. I guarantee a buckler with those 4 things is unstoppable. I have tried almost every possible counter measure to beat these guys and its next to impossible. Only time i succeeded was with tons of shields and forts and a scent pet that shows up first round. Then and only then do I have a semblance of a fighting chance. And even then I have still lost do to damage over time moves. Bleeding and poison. By the end of the match i have used up my limited forts and my limited heals and even if i still have extra shields the dot's alone finish me off.

And I am not just talking as a buck. Privy, muskets, and witches have trouble. With musket I have found if they get too eager and i use scratch mega bombs can cause them trouble. But even then a patient buckler...has no problem what so ever. With privy...if they have witch hunter I still loose. If not...then I can beat t hem. Same thing with witches. If they have witch hunter then game over...regardless of mega mojo storms or not.

And if they have champion weapons on top of those 4 things. Then any slight chance I DID have...is now gone. For those of you who are still in denial about this school being over powered your not living up to your schools potential. And your loosing to someone who has spent tons of time fighting mega bucklers and have worked hard to encounter them...only for them to get a noob buckler at long last as an opponent. Poor little noob of course doesn't think his school is over powered. Not when he is facing down that level of competition.

Buddy I am PvPing at the top levels. This is not a brag or boast. I can compete head to head with the likes of Quentin, Quick Harry Abbott and Technomage. I am sure either of those folks can vouch for my level of skill.

Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 18, 2015 wrote:

Personally though. I think they should make it a witch only move. Much in the same way wizard101 made it so only myth wizards could summon the minion Talos! ((for those of you who dont know who this is Talos is an OP summons with the ability to quake)). They made it so none of the Talos treasure cards could summon him those those that used myth mastery amulets couldn't benefit from this myth specific spell. Since it cheapened the effect for myth wizards as well as over powered many other schools.

I think the same logic should be applied here. It is a witch specific spell...only witches should be allowed to use it. After all they who have no shields and limited boosts SHOULD be the only ones allowed to remove those shields from others...dont you think? It allows them to level the playing field on bucks privy and bucklers who pack tons of fort anyway ((because for some reason they have tons of fort gear. Where witches who need it more...mostly only have leviathans call gear...but whatever)). Seems fair to me. Yes people farmed tons for it...but hey...they farmed tons for moo robe and look what happened to it. Purge amulet is over powered...especially in the hands of those with tons of cloak.

If you aren't among the many who have complained that Bucklers use too many 'hiddens' to just buff and heal, then I apologize.
I should not be exposed because your VA is still functioning ( though reduced ). And doesn't VF reduce the bleeding damage?
Players are giving up a lot to use a banner? Like what? A banner takes only one slot - totem and gives a decided advantage. In PVE I can interact with a switch in combat and not be exposed. In any case this is the decision of the individual player.
As to Wizard101 and Talos, buddy, that minion is available as a Treasure Card in the bazaar, I can't tell you the number of times my Death Wiz has used that card, so you're argument as "class only" isn't a good choice.
The SB who chooses either to stock up on hides and strikes or armors and forts is also making a decision, one or the other will have to be chosen, they really can't do both.
@ Silver Angel, yes, I have more attacks - it's how my class is designed. Just as your class is designed as support/defend. You have the most buffs and heals in the game. Now we can sit here all day trading comments on our classes and how my class ( may be ) better than yours in certain situations, but I don't think that would be very helpful.
BTW, I don't think my class is better than any other class, since I have played all classes to max level and have even PVPed with them ( a little ).

anecorbie on Oct 19, 2015 wrote:

If you aren't among the many who have complained that Bucklers use too many 'hiddens' to just buff and heal, then I apologize.
I should not be exposed because your VA is still functioning ( though reduced ). And doesn't VF reduce the bleeding damage?
Players are giving up a lot to use a banner? Like what? A banner takes only one slot - totem and gives a decided advantage. In PVE I can interact with a switch in combat and not be exposed. In any case this is the decision of the individual player.
As to Wizard101 and Talos, buddy, that minion is available as a Treasure Card in the bazaar, I can't tell you the number of times my Death Wiz has used that card, so you're argument as "class only" isn't a good choice.
The SB who chooses either to stock up on hides and strikes or armors and forts is also making a decision, one or the other will have to be chosen, they really can't do both.
@ Silver Angel, yes, I have more attacks - it's how my class is designed. Just as your class is designed as support/defend. You have the most buffs and heals in the game. Now we can sit here all day trading comments on our classes and how my class ( may be ) better than yours in certain situations, but I don't think that would be very helpful.
BTW, I don't think my class is better than any other class, since I have played all classes to max level and have even PVPed with them ( a little ).

Ok...so your wrong on several points.

1)First of all...reduced is an understatement. When the cloaked assassin hits...the is like maybe 100-400 absorb left. It might as well not be there. I have also had players take advantage of this by hitting with their pirate AND companion. The pirate stays cloaked while the companion removes the rest of the "remaining absorb" as you say. Leaving them ready for a full blown x2 hit again.

Also you didn't comment on my compromise suggestion which would not expose you but remain more fair for the privy as well. I put it in bold and everything so you would see it.

2) If you haven't looked at the totem slots...the totem slot is by far the most powerful of the accessories. If a buck uses it he gives up armor and 2 hits. A privy gives up health heal and absorb. Muskets illios quiver fits in that slot and so on. For me to bring in a banner is to give up several crucial cards. Which is no longer worth it in light of the fact the banner can be destroyed so easily. My point was...it doesn't give that advantage since it is destroyed with such ease. And players won't choose that as often since it doest have the results it should.

3) As for Talos...I think your VERY wrong on that one. It HAS been a while since i played wizard (I left when critical became ridiculous and strategy went out the window in favor of gargantuan boosted spammers.) But...last I saw the Talos treasure cards your referring to have an "anti pvp" symbol on them. Making is to that pirate CAN NOT use them in pvp. Hence the reason I used it as an example. Sure you can use them outside PvP. Same can apply to purge as well. I dont see why they can't still use it outside of PvP. But for within PvP I think only witches should be allowed to use it...same with the talks treasure cards.

Eric Stormbringer on Oct 19, 2015 wrote:

Disagree once again. Players asked for a counter to buffs and got it. Purge is one card that is only available once in the battle. You have multiple shields and buffs. I do not support any removal of purge from being accessible to other classes.

Asked for it? I maybe be wrong but didn't this item exist BEFORE ranked pvp began? And now people just started farming for it like crazy when they realized how over powered it is.

As for the argument about "having multiple shields and buffs" that is a truly weak argument. I am loosing more and more respect for your posts as you make them. Your sounding a lot like those bucklers who want more power while denying what they have.

1)Clearly your not acknowledging the devastating influence of purging someone from the shadows and sending in a cloaked team of Nausica or Fan or all of them IN THE SAME TURN...to hit the now fully exposed pirate. Multiple shields? Haha It TOO LATE to put shields back up. I dont even have time to counter strike because the main pirate is STILL CLOAKED!

2)With this sort of statement your also ignoring the NEED for those shields to stop poison. As we have pointed out in my other thread...poison is NOT affected by armor or resist. Which means a fort is your only chance of stopping it. Clearly you haven't experience what its like to be cursed and throw up shields to try to protect yourself during this vulnerable time of no healing only to have them all be stripped away. And have to use MORE shields...ensuring you run out by the end and they can finish you off later rather than sooner.

3) Not to mention witches and musket usually dont have as many shields or forts as you seem to claim. So that one precious shield or to they decided to bring are all the more valuable because of the rarity.

Of course you don't support it. Thats because you ARE an over powered buckler and you probably like the power it gives you. Its key part of the buckler strategy's. In fact bucklers who dont have purge amulet with them are far easier to defeat than ones who do.

It DOES need to be taken out of PvP. Or at the very least remove cloak. I like the first idea more and only witches being allowed to use it. But the second idea is a decent compromise as well.

stormy quentin ver... on Oct 18, 2015 wrote:

As a witchdoctor, I currently have the most trouble when I face swashbucklers in PVP. That being said, I think that hide is fine as it is in the situations that have been discussed:

1) Valor armor- I think its good to have a potential downside to using valor armor, especially since it can now absorb over 2600 when I use the scratch buff. If bucklers lost their hide when I still had my valor armor on, it would make the buffed up valor armor too difficult to overcome in many cases. The current set up of having hidden units remain hidden when valor armor is used adds more strategy, for both the hidden attacker and for the target that has valor armor.

2) Banners- I think it makes sense for hidden players or companions to remain hidden after hitting a banner, because as stated, they act like switches and no damage is being applied. Also, just like above, having hide end when hitting a banner would make banners even harder to deal with. The person on the other side of the banner (for example, the beast banner) is already facing a huge damage buff from scorpions/trees/etc, and they are already losing a turn while in the hidden state if they choose to hit the banner.

3) Purge not removing hidden- I am not completely sure about this, but I think it can be dealt with most of the time. If anything, it would make sense for at least the damage buff that hidden provides to be removed when purge is used by a hidden buckler, but its not necessary for the hidden state to end when purge is used. In my recent matches, I can usually avoid purge by walking away, unless I just forget that the buckler is going to use it (as Eric Stormbringer can attest to :P)

Ah but concerning "moving away" as you put it. That only applies to weather or not you KNOW the person HAS purge or not. You quentin have pap'ed so much you have a mental list of which buckler bring purge into combat or not. But most dont have that list and get blind sided by a spell that non witches shouldn't have.

Yes there is an element of not letting your opponent know which cards you have. But purge is an exception. A "black fog purge blitz" or even a "purge curse combo" are both so effective they both usually end the match. Nothing in the game should be so effective it ends a match with such ease. That fits the very definition of over powered.

Looks like Anecorbie has hit all the points I was going to make, I just want to add one thing:

If VA removes our Hides then stacking defenses should work the same as stacking stat buffs; since you're technically robbing us of our key element why should we have to sit back and let you turn yourself into some impenetrable tank? Then everyone will be whining for a Privy/Bucc nerf, which will probably put you on the defensive. If anything else, the Hide itself could be removed as now you've made your position known but the double damage should remain active until a solid strike is made. This opens up the Buckler for a counterstrike while allowing them to utilize their tools to their potential.

Funnily enough, I've had no issue with other Bucklers in PvP. Probably because I know how they work and their fighting style (which is 1v1 burst damage, rogue-style) and I'm very familiar with their typical weaknesses thanks to other MMOs. And don't go saying how I haven't PvPed 'at your level', that's just very arrogant. I could've fought Technomage and tied or won and you wouldn't know. Point being, lets keep that debate out of this.

Purge, I've posted my opinion on your thread regarding that 'issue'.

Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 19, 2015 wrote:

Hmm...well then this brings your previous posts a new meaning. If your competing at that level then your in denial about being over powered. It looks to me like you ARE one of those bucklers with those for things. And I wager that with the exception of when you fight other over powered buckler...that you win the bulk of all your matches. People like Harry and so on who I have spoken too and pap'ed against, brag all the time when they win, and about their records, and so on. And then in that same breath say they are NOT over powered and need more stuff. Like more powerful weapons and trainer taught turn the tide.

There is a problem I have observed with bucklers in particular who win 90% of their matches and still deny that they are too strong. Maybe I am wrong but your starting to sound like one of those competitors. Someone who likes the status quo as it is and doesn't want anything to change.

I hope I am wrong. As for me, I make these posts from what I feel is a fairly neutral standpoint. I have nothing against bucklers...in fact I TOO feel that I am over powered with my buckler and struggle more with my other schools with pvp. The de-buff's and suggestions I have made are ones that I have requested from personal experience and a spirit of fairness. Ones that I think would balance the current state of things. So far I have proposed a buff for witches in these threads and a de-buff for bucklers. Everyone else I think is fairly balanced and should be left as they are.

When winning becomes equivalent to OP then you may have a point. However you are literally stating that swashbuckler is OP because swashbucklers can duel at the top levels of PvP. Is witchdoctor now overpowered because Quentin can win at the top levels of PvP? How about muskets because of Zane? Bucaneers because of Technomage? Privateers because of Walker?

As for me I have been winning with swashbuckler when it was the lowest tier class against Privateers which had the largest extended marigin over every other class at the lvl 50 cap. I have been PvPing since Pirate 101's inception of PvP. In fact I took a hiatus from PvP and went over to become one of the acknowledged best Storm 1v1 PvPers in the meta when storm was/is garbage tier 1v1 school. As for wanting the status quo; Here is an article by me asking for ways to address Black Fog when it initially came out ; Black Fog. If I see something as overpowered I will NOT hesitate to call it out. As is right now I see swashbuckler as a well balanced class. Witchdoctors do need another minor buff(simply giving them back charm would put them on the same level imo) but Swashbucklers do not need a nerf.

anecorbie on Oct 20, 2015 wrote:

I'm not sure this reply went through the first time, my computer froze; so if it seems that I'm repeating myself, that's why.
I don't PVP in Wizard101, I was referring to PVE. And I didn't like your "compromise", frankly, I hate it because it removes ANY advantage to my team ( sole team buff, Thomas ).
There have been so many items that were ignored until recently, now the advantages of these items in PVP are being recognized and used. If you have a problem with that - well you know what the answer is; strategize or farm.
It seems to me ( from my experiences in PVP ) that SB is still a balanced class with distinct advantages as well as disadvantages.
As for the "Super Champions", they have been competing at Champion levels way before Ranked was installed, their experience as well as equipment put them above the average SB PVP-er.

I think your forgetting that EVERYONE ELSES team buffs have already been severely limited. Buffs aren't allowed to be stacked any more which helps bucklers the most since as you put it they dont have multiple buffs.

That handicap is geared towards the bucklers who dont have that advantage. Except shadow dance but that doesn't help the whole team. So basically a bucklers whole teams gets this massive cloaked advantage where they all get x2 damage. But as a privy I can't double boost my teams critical or stats to prepare for the fog onslaught. So it seems fair to me that if everyone else is nerfed...they shouldn't ALL be allowed multiple x2 damage hits with cloak at the very least.

Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 19, 2015 wrote:

Asked for it? I maybe be wrong but didn't this item exist BEFORE ranked pvp began? And now people just started farming for it like crazy when they realized how over powered it is.

As for the argument about "having multiple shields and buffs" that is a truly weak argument. I am loosing more and more respect for your posts as you make them. Your sounding a lot like those bucklers who want more power while denying what they have.

1)Clearly your not acknowledging the devastating influence of purging someone from the shadows and sending in a cloaked team of Nausica or Fan or all of them IN THE SAME TURN...to hit the now fully exposed pirate. Multiple shields? Haha It TOO LATE to put shields back up. I dont even have time to counter strike because the main pirate is STILL CLOAKED!

2)With this sort of statement your also ignoring the NEED for those shields to stop poison. As we have pointed out in my other thread...poison is NOT affected by armor or resist. Which means a fort is your only chance of stopping it. Clearly you haven't experience what its like to be cursed and throw up shields to try to protect yourself during this vulnerable time of no healing only to have them all be stripped away. And have to use MORE shields...ensuring you run out by the end and they can finish you off later rather than sooner.

3) Not to mention witches and musket usually dont have as many shields or forts as you seem to claim. So that one precious shield or to they decided to bring are all the more valuable because of the rarity.

Of course you don't support it. Thats because you ARE an over powered buckler and you probably like the power it gives you. Its key part of the buckler strategy's. In fact bucklers who dont have purge amulet with them are far easier to defeat than ones who do.

It DOES need to be taken out of PvP. Or at the very least remove cloak. I like the first idea more and only witches being allowed to use it. But the second idea is a decent compromise as well.

Yes asked for it-Go search the numerous posts asking for counters to privateer buffs around the lvl 50 cap.

I don't particularly care about your opinion of my posts, just the content of them. Yes you have your multiple shields and buffs whereas we have one purge. This isn't an argument-it's a fact.

1)Hmm its almost as if a counter exists in the form of barricade-oh wait it does!

2)Yeah youre right I've never faced swashbucklers in PvP before so I have no idea how it feels to be poisoned and purged with limited shields(rolls eyes)

3)When to use your limited shields and forts is just as important as the how.

Its key part of the buckler strategy's. In fact bucklers who dont have purge amulet with them are far easier to defeat than ones who do.

Ah so you want to remove a key aspect of a swashbucklers strategy so they become far easier for you to defeat....seems like a legitimate unbiased reason to modify purge.

Eric Stormbringer on Oct 20, 2015 wrote:

When winning becomes equivalent to OP then you may have a point. However you are literally stating that swashbuckler is OP because swashbucklers can duel at the top levels of PvP. Is witchdoctor now overpowered because Quentin can win at the top levels of PvP? How about muskets because of Zane? Bucaneers because of Technomage? Privateers because of Walker?

As for me I have been winning with swashbuckler when it was the lowest tier class against Privateers which had the largest extended marigin over every other class at the lvl 50 cap. I have been PvPing since Pirate 101's inception of PvP. In fact I took a hiatus from PvP and went over to become one of the acknowledged best Storm 1v1 PvPers in the meta when storm was/is garbage tier 1v1 school. As for wanting the status quo; Here is an article by me asking for ways to address Black Fog when it initially came out ; Black Fog. If I see something as overpowered I will NOT hesitate to call it out. As is right now I see swashbuckler as a well balanced class. Witchdoctors do need another minor buff(simply giving them back charm would put them on the same level imo) but Swashbucklers do not need a nerf.

I hope Thomas will read your post on hide and scent, there are comments from Ratbeard that he would find "enlightening".