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Double dipping cloak!? Question for Ratbeard

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AuthorMessage
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Hello KI thank you for all your hard work! But I have a small question on a possible bug I discovered. So I have started pvping with my privy and I discovered something rather distressing! And I want to know if its a glitch or if its supposed to be that way. I love to put on a shield AND absorb its a great defensive combo and as a privy defense is kind of our thing. However because of the shield, damage is cut in half and sometimes the absorb bubble doesn't break. When this happens an odd glitch occurs! If the buck or buckler or whoever really was cloaked and they hit for DOUBLE DAMAGE...but the absorb bubble doesn't break...they REMAIN cloaked!! And then they get to hit twice in a row for double damage with one cloak. This is extremely painful to have happen in a heated match and players take major advantage of it.

If this is indeed a glitch do you know when it will be fixed? And if its not a glitch can you tell my why it won't be fixed? This is a major disadvantage for privateers that I am not sure is entirely fair as well as any others who carry absorb gear.
Lieutenant
Nov 21, 2010
103
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 30, 2015 wrote:
Hello KI thank you for all your hard work! But I have a small question on a possible bug I discovered. So I have started pvping with my privy and I discovered something rather distressing! And I want to know if its a glitch or if its supposed to be that way. I love to put on a shield AND absorb its a great defensive combo and as a privy defense is kind of our thing. However because of the shield, damage is cut in half and sometimes the absorb bubble doesn't break. When this happens an odd glitch occurs! If the buck or buckler or whoever really was cloaked and they hit for DOUBLE DAMAGE...but the absorb bubble doesn't break...they REMAIN cloaked!! And then they get to hit twice in a row for double damage with one cloak. This is extremely painful to have happen in a heated match and players take major advantage of it.

If this is indeed a glitch do you know when it will be fixed? And if its not a glitch can you tell my why it won't be fixed? This is a major disadvantage for privateers that I am not sure is entirely fair as well as any others who carry absorb gear.
Dear Thomas,

Yep, what you are experiencing is common in the arena. I posted this month ago in the Bilge Pump section, but never got a conformation that it's a glitch.

I do hope they fix that, because, not only that the enemy under cloak is not revealed, but the targeted unit under absorb takes all the after effects of the attack (wound from Assassin Strike, -acc and -agi from Buccaneer Smash, etc). That is a pretty nasty glitch if you ask me, and it should be fixed.

Sincerely,
Stubborn Duncan Freeman
Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
398
Yeah I mentioned that in several threads lately too.

I think the "excuse" is hide doesnt break because they dont do any damage ... which is technically true, but yeah it should be changed.
Lieutenant
Oct 21, 2012
143
This has existed for quite a while. Though we aren't sure "officially" if it's a glitch or not, it doesn't really seem so. TECHNICALLY the hidden never dealt damage yet. You COULD argue since the card says you lose your hide when you attack that the buckler should of lost his hide, but again he never dealt damage, so he keeps his hide.
Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
What causes this is that certain powers/talents need "direct damage" to register.

In order for the hidden of an unit to be used up, they need to register direct damage even if it's as low as 1 damage. However, what ends up happening in the situation you described is that the VA does not break and thus "0 damage" is registered, keeping the cloak intact.

This mechanic (or glitch if KI confirms it as so) is the reason why using poison won't take you out of hidden because you aren't dealing "direct damage" to your opponent in the form of a single attack.

This mechanic (or glitch if KI confirms it as so) can also be observed with the Bladestorm/Double Tap line of talents. Even if you critical on someone with a VA, your bladestorm/double tap will not trigger (assuming the bubble doesn't break) because it requires damage to activate.

This is not something new though, it has worked this way since the change to Hidden and Bladestorm/Double tap back with the release of the Tower of Moo Manchu. I personally don't think it should be changed because it is such a silly thing to avoid and can actually be helpful at times (in case of when vs a Buck with bladestorm).

If you don't want the Swashbuckler to "double dip", just use the VA when they only have a turn remaining of their hidden. It is as simple as that. I carry double VA on my Witch and Musket and have never ran into the problem of a Buckler doubling dipping their cloak. If you are aware of the mechanic, it is very easy to avoid it.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Quite Jacques on Sep 30, 2015 wrote:
This has existed for quite a while. Though we aren't sure "officially" if it's a glitch or not, it doesn't really seem so. TECHNICALLY the hidden never dealt damage yet. You COULD argue since the card says you lose your hide when you attack that the buckler should of lost his hide, but again he never dealt damage, so he keeps his hide.
But the issue is that he is taking damage from the strike. The attack went through, did damage, yet the hide remained. This should have removed the hide.
Captain
Feb 11, 2010
644
If you see the description for walk in shadows, it ends when you dish out damage. Since your shield wasn't broken, no damage was given, thus keeping the hide.
Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
398
anecorbie on Sep 30, 2015 wrote:
But the issue is that he is taking damage from the strike. The attack went through, did damage, yet the hide remained. This should have removed the hide.
I agree with Anecorbie here, it does damage, or else bubble would still be full.
Petty Officer
Jan 03, 2010
95
anecorbie on Sep 30, 2015 wrote:
But the issue is that he is taking damage from the strike. The attack went through, did damage, yet the hide remained. This should have removed the hide.
The attack goes through yes, however it doesn't "deal damage" as the hide mechanic most likely implies. VA "absorbs" however much damage, so that "damage dealt" is in a way non existant.

Now I have know about this mechanic since it was first discovered almost, and I do agree that it is indeed getting more out of of power than the power says, but on the same hand my argument above I also valid.

I think KI will just have to make a call on this since it has been brought up numerous times and has gone without answer.

To be honest, I feel this should be addressed, but either way it isn't up to the players here since has been stated enough that KI is aware of it. It can be like my first argument and that this mechanic is being used correctly, or it can take the second route of removing hidden since an attack that deals damage was used.

It's heads or tails in the end honestly.
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Right either way this needs to be amended. That was my point and why I am trying to get Bonnie Anne or Rat Beards attention.
Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
It is not a bug or glitch, it is intentional. See here: Questions

(If you are hidden and attack a companion with valor's armor, sometimes your hidden will remain even after the attack.

Ratbeard: That's intentional. An attack that does no damage won't trigger abilities that are listening for "On Damage)
Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
glitch!

Virtuous Dante Ramsey
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 1, 2015 wrote:
Right either way this needs to be amended. That was my point and why I am trying to get Bonnie Anne or Rat Beards attention.
no then bladestorm will change and bucks will impossible to stop as a privy who refuses to resort to summon spamming for a 1 and a half hour 1v1 ranked match
Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
398
zuto4011a on Oct 1, 2015 wrote:
no then bladestorm will change and bucks will impossible to stop as a privy who refuses to resort to summon spamming for a 1 and a half hour 1v1 ranked match
I'd rather take a bladestorm than a cloaked assassin strike.
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
zuto4011a on Oct 1, 2015 wrote:
no then bladestorm will change and bucks will impossible to stop as a privy who refuses to resort to summon spamming for a 1 and a half hour 1v1 ranked match
No just change the rules for cloak. Instead of vanished after damage...have i vanish after you hit. Now blade storm is still stopped and cloak ends when it hits the absorb regardless of if it breaks through.
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Silver Angel on Oct 1, 2015 wrote:
I'd rather take a bladestorm than a cloaked assassin strike.
Id much rather take a hidden assassin then a blade chain
Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
398
zuto4011a on Oct 3, 2015 wrote:
Id much rather take a hidden assassin then a blade chain
Chain can still be avoided, dont you have zeal/espirit?

Assassin not.
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Silver Angel on Oct 4, 2015 wrote:
Chain can still be avoided, dont you have zeal/espirit?

Assassin not.
like ive said before criticals are NOT based of criticals regardless of what ratbeard says there is too much evidence that this is false the most prominent being a pete chaining when sand stormed, an assassin i can predict how much damage will be done, a chain i cannot so id much rather face what i know then what i dont
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Well like I said its not absorb that needs to be changed but the rules governing cloak. Leave absorb how it is. It is indeed great when it stops the critical chains.

As for me...I would much rather face an epic chain where I have the chance to dodge...than a DOUBLE CLOAKED ASSASSIN. Lol that what...approx 3000 something damage with bleeding to boot? Give me the chain any day. But...now we are discussing a moot point. They can fix this without ruining absorb...and without even nerfing cloak really. I mean this is an isolated exception/bonus. Fixing it won't take away any of a bucklers moves.

This and poison by passing magic resist are 2 bugs they can fix without nerfing.
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Another reason they need to fix the cloak that I just discovered. Is that bucklers can break a banner from the shadows without loosing cloak! Yes yes I know...it only vanishes if they "do damage" which is why this doesn't happen.

So going back to my earlier fix...they need to make it so cloak deactivates if the buckler uses his weapon. Regardless of if the damage punches though the absorb or not. And also for destroying banner. A pirate has to give up a lot to bring a banner into combat. Don't know if people have noticed the trend or not but the totem slot has the best stuff. Their sacrifice shouldn't be thwarted so easily from the shadows.
Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 14, 2015 wrote:
Another reason they need to fix the cloak that I just discovered. Is that bucklers can break a banner from the shadows without loosing cloak! Yes yes I know...it only vanishes if they "do damage" which is why this doesn't happen.

So going back to my earlier fix...they need to make it so cloak deactivates if the buckler uses his weapon. Regardless of if the damage punches though the absorb or not. And also for destroying banner. A pirate has to give up a lot to bring a banner into combat. Don't know if people have noticed the trend or not but the totem slot has the best stuff. Their sacrifice shouldn't be thwarted so easily from the shadows.
Banners are considered environmental tools similar to levers in PvP. When you disable a banner you are not "attacking" it. This is why powers have no effect on banners and why it cannot be destroyed or targeted via AoE. You are literally flipping a switch mechanics wise. As such i see no reason why hide should be changed to deactivate upon interaction.
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 15, 2015 wrote:
Banners are considered environmental tools similar to levers in PvP. When you disable a banner you are not "attacking" it. This is why powers have no effect on banners and why it cannot be destroyed or targeted via AoE. You are literally flipping a switch mechanics wise. As such i see no reason why hide should be changed to deactivate upon interaction.
I told you I didn't NEED an explanation...but i guess you didn't see it. I know why it doesn't. I am saying I think it should.

I just told you the reason why (please read my post better before replying). People are loosing several important cards and or buffs to bring in a banner. And anyone with a cloak can destroying it without batting an eye? I think that people need TOO CHOOSE...between one benefit or another. You can not "have your cake and eat it too" as the expression goes. Players shouldn't be allowed to do multiple hits and stay hidden and destroy banner and purge all from the shadows. They need to choose between breaking a banner and removing the positive effects it gives or doing an extra hit. They need to choose between doing 950-2500 damage with poison and possibly stopping healing...or assassin strike. They need to choose to hit an absorb or wait till the shield on top of it runs out...they shouldn't get to double assassin with one cloak.

My point is in addition to being over powered the buckler school is the most bugged thing in the game.
Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 15, 2015 wrote:
I told you I didn't NEED an explanation...but i guess you didn't see it. I know why it doesn't. I am saying I think it should.

I just told you the reason why (please read my post better before replying). People are loosing several important cards and or buffs to bring in a banner. And anyone with a cloak can destroying it without batting an eye? I think that people need TOO CHOOSE...between one benefit or another. You can not "have your cake and eat it too" as the expression goes. Players shouldn't be allowed to do multiple hits and stay hidden and destroy banner and purge all from the shadows. They need to choose between breaking a banner and removing the positive effects it gives or doing an extra hit. They need to choose between doing 950-2500 damage with poison and possibly stopping healing...or assassin strike. They need to choose to hit an absorb or wait till the shield on top of it runs out...they shouldn't get to double assassin with one cloak.

My point is in addition to being over powered the buckler school is the most bugged thing in the game.
That's where our points diverge. I dont believe buckler to be an OP school and as such see no reason for the many many nerfs you have listed throughout your threads. Buckler isn't the most bugged school-it is the most different school. It acts and behaves in a completely unique way mechanics wise which is why it has remained my favorite school. It is the only school with no team main stat buffs, it is the only team that focuses on the individual over the whole. It is the only school without any team epic grants etc. Dont take away my schools unique points simply to nerf a school thats already well balanced as is.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 15, 2015 wrote:
I told you I didn't NEED an explanation...but i guess you didn't see it. I know why it doesn't. I am saying I think it should.

I just told you the reason why (please read my post better before replying). People are loosing several important cards and or buffs to bring in a banner. And anyone with a cloak can destroying it without batting an eye? I think that people need TOO CHOOSE...between one benefit or another. You can not "have your cake and eat it too" as the expression goes. Players shouldn't be allowed to do multiple hits and stay hidden and destroy banner and purge all from the shadows. They need to choose between breaking a banner and removing the positive effects it gives or doing an extra hit. They need to choose between doing 950-2500 damage with poison and possibly stopping healing...or assassin strike. They need to choose to hit an absorb or wait till the shield on top of it runs out...they shouldn't get to double assassin with one cloak.

My point is in addition to being over powered the buckler school is the most bugged thing in the game.
This is the way any hide works in PVE, I can interact with a switch while hidden and not break my hide. As Ratbeard has said that he isn't a fan of making changes to a power from PVE just to satisfy PVP.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Mr. Sunhammer's wish seems to be that any action taken under a cloak should break that cloak no matter what the results of that action is.
I'm against this idea completely, and for many reasons:
When I attack someone wearing VA and the damage from my attack is utterly absorbed by that Armor, why should I be exposed? In this case its hardly "double-dipping", it is as if the attack never happened or that it was blocked or dodged. In fact, I lose a turn and that power is removed from my deck. ( As being already used. )
Poisons aren't a physical attack - where's the weapon? They aren't a debuff either.
Banners ( as has been said ) are an environmental tool placed on the board, this is in lieu of a personal totem and gives an extra team boost. I should be able to remove it without exposure just as I can in PVE.
However, now we come to purge, and I've heard it suggested that using purge should remove a hide; this makes sense to me - it is a debuff attack. I don't believe that purge itself should remove hide. If this statement seems contradictory, let me explain:
WD "X" uses purge on a hidden buckler to remove buffs: the hide should remain in effect.
SB "Y" uses purge and is exposed while removing the buffs in the affected area.
I hope that's clear.
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