Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 22, 2015 wrote:

Ok so maybe I am missing something. But there is a major problem with stun and it only seems to happen when I fight swashbucklers. But when I am mega strength boosted and I am hit and then my vengeance strike makes contact and the stun activates...for some reason with bucklers the stun doesn't activate until the end! Like this has happened a lot. First strike riposte frenzy and THEN the stun activates but only after they have used up all their epics and its the end of the turn. Then it vanishes the moment its their turn again.

Like I don't know if they gave first strike and riposte tons of priority or what but vengeance strike should activate the moment it makes contact. This happens against flan and toro too. But I haven't seen it happen much against other buck companions or pirates for example. The moment the successful stun strike makes contact all future epics they could have done stop dead in the water.

Its not the same as like the accuracy de-buff of vicious strike not activating till after the back and forth. That makes sense. If first strike goes first it has to go first. But this shouldn't work that way. And it doesn't...at least not against any other opponent.

And don't tell me its chance cause it has happened SUPER consistently. Almost every time in fact. I know that KI doesn't wanna nerf bucklers cause they are favorites...but making it so that a bucks move doesn't work the way its supposed to just so they can get more hits in is just wrong.

Please fix this as soon as possible. It has cost me a dozen matches now that could have been one if I could have stopped the epic train when it was SUPPOSED to be stopped.

I wonder if you're experiencing a bug, for, in my experience, when I'm stunned my talent attacks don't activate. This is the major reason I hate going against a buck.

Alex Hawkins on Sep 22, 2015 wrote:

It happens against every opponent. That you feel is only happening against Swashbucklers must be all in your head. The stun mechanic works the same way the Vicious accuracy debuff works, in that it applies after all the back and forth. It has always been this way for as far back as I can remember.

Perhaps the reason you feel it happens more vs Swashbuckler is due to their First Strike 3. Here I will give you an example where the stun would apply after the end of the chains:

Buck targets Swashbuckler
Swashbuckler's First strike activates and hits
Buck's vengeance strike activates, hits and is a successful stun

Now at this point, one of two things will happen:

-If your Vengeance Strike hit also triggers your own Relentless/Bladestorm/Followthrough, then those Epic hits will go BEFORE the stun effect is applied. Since they go before the stun effect is applied, the moment your Relentless/Bladestorm/FollowThrough triggers, the Swashbuckler's First Strike will trigger and thus creating a separate chain of epics which will happen before the stun takes effect. Same thing happens with Vicious Charge's reduce.

-If your Vengeance Strike hit did not trigger any additional epics, then the stun will happen right then and there.

So in actuality, by you having much higher strength than your opponent, it creates an scenario were Relentless and Bladestorm triggers are much more likely to activate after your successful Vengeance Strike hit. Like you said in your third paragraph, if first strike goes first it has to go first.

Should it be changed so that the reduce of vicious and stun of vengeance applies before other chains? I actually don't think it should. The way it works now is better and more balanced than the alternative in my opinion.

Hmm I hear what you are saying but that is NOT ENTIRELY true. Here is a specific example where what your saying should be true and the hits should continue on...but dont. Two buck both with vengeance strike 3. It happens all the time. Once one of the buck's stun activates the other is stopped dead in their tracks. But baised on what your saying that shouldn't happen until AFTER the other guys vengeance strikes and relentless and blades storms have all finished as well. But that is not what happens.

I know you think its all in my head. And the initial first strike kinda makes sense. But the moment strike with stun lands it should activate. And no I am not assuming that it was the last strike that did it. I have had a few situations where only one strike landed at almost the beginning and still have this issue.

I am telling you is a real problem.

There has also been at least a few times where somehow there was an impossible double stun! Where one lands strike with stun...but it activates late as I am saying. Giving the opponent buck time to trigger their own strikes...and some how both get stunned.

This one is a bit more rare but just as bizarre. Human Bucks are kind of set in their epics...but companions are not. And many players like myself choose vengeance strike 3 over other options specifically to take advantage of the chance to stun and stop their epics early...maybe even create a free epic-less round where they can hit in safety or avoid hold the line 3 or something. But if its not working right it cheapens that opportunity cost.

If this isn't going to be fixed ever at least tell us so we can choose different companions or epic sets to fight with instead.

Alex Hawkins on Sep 24, 2015 wrote:

The first scenario is exactly what I described on my post before. The follow through hit, or relentless hits if it triggers, will cause first strike to activate before the stun effect hits. Same way that using vicious and follow through activating will cause the reduce effect to go after all the chains are over.

Is it a bug? No, I don't believe so. Nothing has changed, it has always worked that way.

Should it be changed to work the way you suggested? That would be an unnecessary buff to the already strong Buccaneer class. The way it currently works keeps the stun from vengeance and the reduce from vicious from being a tad too strong.

Then you give me two examples that contradict one another:

"Two buck both with vengeance strike 3. It happens all the time. Once one of the buck's stun activates the other is stopped dead in their tracks"

"There has also been at least a few times where somehow there was an impossible double stun! Where one lands strike with stun...but it activates late as I am saying. Giving the opponent buck time to trigger their own strikes...and some how both get stunned."

So either the stun is triggered right away and stopping another Buck on their tracks, or the stun is triggering at the end creating the double stun scenario. I haven't had time to test out your claims yet, which is why I hadn't replied, but in theory it should work the same way as when vs a Buckler.

Once your vengeance hits, if your follow through/relentless triggers, then that will create a separate chain before the stun from your vengeance is resolve. In that separate chain, it is entirely possible for another Buck to land their vengeance and stun as well, thus creating an scenario where both players are stunned at the end of the turn.

Is just one of those things you have to keep in mind when attacking a vengeance strike 3 unit.

Hmm I did give two contradictory examples but I have indeed seen both and I did call one rare/odd. For the most part other pirates are stopped dead in their tracks but that double stun has happened before but that just further proves the oddness of this. At any rate what your saying and I am saying about follow through still has a logical flaw! Lets assume for a moment that your absolutely right...that it can't activate fully until the epic chain back and forth finishes. There is still a paradox where this isn't true half the time and is true the other half. The point being...that it DOESNT work the same way every time!

Basically it seems that a bucklers epics get to go through to and a bucks "typically" do not. ((as you mentioned I did sight an example and I did call it bizarre.)) But the fact of the matter is if a buck hits another one that definitely triggers his change to at least swing his vengeance strike back. And thats your entire point right? Triggering of epics. But most of the time when two bucks or a buck and privy or whatever face each other that second strike is NOT allowed. The stun stops them early. And all future relentless and blade storm's or even reckless frenzy that would have continued if stun didn't stop it. Yet for some reason the first strike riposte track is un-inhibited. Seriously 9 out of 10 times this happens! Strike hit miss hit hit miss hit...and then finally the stun activates. ((and again this is only when one strike make contact))

Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 26, 2015 wrote:

Bleh and please do not say that the reason they shouldn't fix this is because "bucks are the strongest class" I am so sick of hearing people say this. The fact of the matter is bucks are not the strongest in fact bucks don't hold ANY of the records. Bucklers hit champion first in this new season...bucklers have the highest number of champions...and bucklers have the best win loss ratios.

I can understand why YOU would say this. Your a musket. Buck's were like built to kill muskets. Not only do you have not strength (a bucks highest stat category) which increases his chance to hit you. But he can rush in so fast that its hard to get all your defensive spells up.

But the truth of the matter is I have a pirate of each school and I pvp'ed with all of them at least a few times. And the fact is with the right gear my buckler and my privy win far more consistently than my buck does. I would rank bucks third. In order of difficulty here is what I have experienced: Bucklers first (even more so if you have purge amulet...but still really high without it), Privy second (if they have barricade and know what they are doing), Bucks third, muskets forth, and witches last. I have enough of this stuff in my other thread so I won't put my reasons...but this is the first time I have put them in MY order based on MY experience. Yes I realize its different for a lot of other people...but as i said...Buck's do not have the top spots. Until a buck remains unchallenged in the top spot do not call them the strongest class.

I can understand why YOU would say this. Your a musket.

Let me correct you first before I reply to your points. I too have all 5 classes maxed, and PvP very frequently with each and every one of them.

My Buccaneer reached Champion last season with an undefeated record of 29-0. You can see how I achieved that in my guide over here in Central. My Witch peaked at Paragon before I stopped dueling with him to focus on my Musket. This season, I am focusing on my Swashbuckler and Privateer. My Privateer is currently 15-2 encountering very little problems, even against Bucklers. My 2 losses are one at the hands of a Buck and one at the hands of a Buckler. My Swashbuckler on the other hand is currently 16-5, struggling a bit more than my Privy is, including a couple of very close matches vs some Buccaneers.

So while my avatar is the Musket symbol (it was my first class after all), please do not assume that is all I play and discard my arguments just because "Your a musket".

With that out of the way, the "ranking" of classes doesn't matter at all. They are not hard truths as you are making them out to be. I think Bucks are the best 1v1 class based on how easy I got to Champion with my own Buck and on the things I have seen other Bucks like Technomage and Reckless Christopher pull in the arena. But both my ranking and yours are simply opinions.

At the moment good Bucks can take games off of good Bucklers just as easily as a good Buckler can take a game off a good Buck. My point is that changing the way the stun mechanic works would tip the scale far to the side of the Buck, something that is not needed when they seem to be so balanced with one another.

The way it currently works is completely fine for the stun. Changing that to what you are suggesting will just make the full line up of player + companions with vengeance strike 3 (Pete, Goro, etc) almost unbeatable.

If your problem is that you're struggling against Bucklers, I will be more than happy to give you some tips.

Alex Hawkins on Sep 28, 2015 wrote:

I can understand why YOU would say this. Your a musket.

Let me correct you first before I reply to your points. I too have all 5 classes maxed, and PvP very frequently with each and every one of them.

My Buccaneer reached Champion last season with an undefeated record of 29-0. You can see how I achieved that in my guide over here in Central. My Witch peaked at Paragon before I stopped dueling with him to focus on my Musket. This season, I am focusing on my Swashbuckler and Privateer. My Privateer is currently 15-2 encountering very little problems, even against Bucklers. My 2 losses are one at the hands of a Buck and one at the hands of a Buckler. My Swashbuckler on the other hand is currently 16-5, struggling a bit more than my Privy is, including a couple of very close matches vs some Buccaneers.

So while my avatar is the Musket symbol (it was my first class after all), please do not assume that is all I play and discard my arguments just because "Your a musket".

With that out of the way, the "ranking" of classes doesn't matter at all. They are not hard truths as you are making them out to be. I think Bucks are the best 1v1 class based on how easy I got to Champion with my own Buck and on the things I have seen other Bucks like Technomage and Reckless Christopher pull in the arena. But both my ranking and yours are simply opinions.

At the moment good Bucks can take games off of good Bucklers just as easily as a good Buckler can take a game off a good Buck. My point is that changing the way the stun mechanic works would tip the scale far to the side of the Buck, something that is not needed when they seem to be so balanced with one another.

The way it currently works is completely fine for the stun. Changing that to what you are suggesting will just make the full line up of player + companions with vengeance strike 3 (Pete, Goro, etc) almost unbeatable.

If your problem is that you're struggling against Bucklers, I will be more than happy to give you some tips.

Right well I am more curious to see how your buck is doing THIS season. People keep mentioning who bucks where strongest tier last season. I doubt that is true...but even if it is that is because of the moo robe. ((I see from central you used it too)) The robe were bucks. Which meant they could boost and buff them up. In fact I would argue that this season is a much better indicator as to who is top tier or not.

Also I too have all the schools and pvp with a lot. And my buckler has far less issues than the other schools. His biggest problem are with privateers actually. But bucks present very little threat. I would say i beat them 8 out of 10 times. The fails due to cards hiding at the bottom of the pile and just general bad luck or mistakes. But for the most part if my spells show up in a general order to how they are set up...a buck has no chance.

So dont assume that because I am an outspoken voice for bucks means thats all I am. I have a buckler as well. My fear and trend that I see is people feeling bucklers should get even more benefits and that bucks should be nerfed further. In fact thats what they tried to do at the beginning but then allowed shield stacking to come back.

I am just worried the buckler school will become like the ice school in wizard101. Where ice gets the benefits of every other school...only even better versions ((i can elaborate on this if need be)).

So when I see a buck's stun not activating until the end...It seems like its so that bucklers full chain of epics can finish. Now you may be right. Maybe that extra relentless of mine started a secondary chain but that still makes no sense. With the vicious strike thing for exmaple...it usually doesnt even hit until the end. But with this its like we have a stun hanging in limbo just all the other epics can activate. I feel it should activate the moment it makes contact. Otherwise what is the point of vengeance strike 3?

Alex Hawkins on Sep 29, 2015 wrote:

If your worry is that KI is somehow catering only to Swashbucklers, you must not be paying attention. Lets take a look at the last few updates directly related to PvP:

The Imperial Robe of Moo Nerf - Overall nerf to every class, or at least to an item that every class could find great use out of.

Ensign Emmett and Exeter power - Meant to slow down rushing melee classes, a nerf to both Swashbucklers and Buccaneers. Since it is AoE, the power can still hit hidden units and slows the usual Black Fog combo with Nausica + Goro charge.

Old Scratch Buff - A buff to all classes but mainly Musketeers, Privateers and Witchdoctors. Using Scratch is not effective on Swashbucklers and Buccaneers.

Summer's Fire larger area of effect - Creates a better defense against melee classes that have to move next to you to hit you.

Raise Barricade buff - Usable to block the path of melee units. A great tool to fight off Black Fog. I recommend learning it if you haven't.

First Strike 3/QD3 change - Both a buff and nerf to Swashbucklers. Lets call this one even.

Scent activating when pet moves into range of player - A direct nerf to the hide mechanic

All of the relevant changes in the last patches have either buff other classes or nerfed Swashbucklers one way or another, so how exactly are Swashbucklers getting the benefits of every other school?

Again, if you personally seem to be struggling so much vs Swashbucklers, then I suggest you sit down and rethink your strategy a bit. Unless you are using a Witchdoctor (who are currently extremely weak against every class), you should not be losing every single fight against a Swashbuckler as you are making it out to be. Specially as a Buccaneer which is the best class at fighting Swashbucklers.

I'll make sure to update you on how my own Buccaneer does once I get to ranking him up. Focusing on Privy and Swashbuckler this season since I didn't use them at all last season.

Oh you missunderstand. I think they are giving every one EXCEPT bucks improvements WHILE refusing to nerf bucklers who just keep getting stronger.

So most of your post is fine and I agree. Emmet etc all good for privy and others and so on. Flames hmm...idk if you can count the pvp weapons as a benefit since not everyone can get it any more and may have to wait for a year to pvp.

There is one key mistake in your post though. Scratch helps Bucklers significantly! In fact he helps everyone...again...EXCEPT bucks ((because bucks have nothing that does magic damage)). See already before he is even fixed I have seen bucklers bringing him into pvp to boost their poison and bleeding! ((I already have an entire thread on that which you replied on. They REALLY DO need to take away a bucklers ability to do both physical and magical damage. Just like you suggested making poison be physical and boosted of something other than mojo boost.)) But basically if the average poison damage is 190 for 5 rounds. With a max scratch mojo boost it now does 380 for 5 rounds BEFORE critical! That is 1900 from the shadows, with purge follow through also from the shadows, followed by buffing up/shielding followed by hits that are double damage with more bleeding also boosted by scratch.

Yet they wont make poison remove cloak and they wont make a buck's vengeance strike 3 stun hit the moment it makes contact. You said this would give them an unfair advantage? I think they need something, anything to make it so they can compete. ((Keep in mind hitting a dodging buckler is really hard already and the "chance" of it activating is small as is.))

Because guess what your right! KI is helping EVERY school except bucks. They are buffing up everyone around bucks. If you haven't pvp'ed with your buck this season well good luck. Its twice as hard to win this season as it was last season. And now with scratch being fixed. I wouldn't be surprised if bucks are the bottom tier school soon.