anecorbie on Jul 6, 2015 wrote:

I have seen the nefarious five take out the terror - cotta in ONE round ( primarily the reason I don't use them anymore ). So it should be no problem for PVP players to do the same.

The reason I mostly want them banned now isn't for 1v1 since Ratbeard satisfied my main reason being the stacking of Vicious Charges but with the buff update he said this would be the same for Debuffs as well meaning it wont be as baddto deal with in 1v1 its just the damage but that's what they're for right? Now the main thing I think that needs to be addressed is the amount of summons can be out at a time because the argument stated above, imagine a 4v4 with everyone having Nefarious Staff&Moo Robe and even just throw in a witch doctor on both sides. So that's automatically 72 Terracotta Warrior's plus another 72 Scorpions, so that's already 144 entities we have to wait to make a move plus add in 8 pets for 4 on both sides now we're at 152 entities and if we have 2 witchdoctors 1 for each side (but usually there would be 2 in a good 4v4 team so cherry picking even going on here) that's another 10 just from there group summon so now 162 entities, oh and add 6 for there single summons. That's all together 168 entities on the board, 4v4 by itself without summons takes a minute or 2 to do there turn. Imagine 168! You may think 168 moving will just be 4 minutes of animation but also add in the attack animation and epics/chains that's like 15-20 minutes a turn just for the AI sorry but that's just gonna keep players from 4v4 so I think there should be a limit to summons on a board maybe 18 and not including pets? Just an idea but something needs to be done/added there.

Ratbeard on Jul 1, 2015 wrote:

A great defense against the terrorcotta warriors is turning your whole team invisible with Black Fog, and a great defense against Black Fog is surrounding your squish with summoned creatures.

Swashbucklers are supposed to hide and hit hard (and then die...), and Witchdoctors/Privateers are supposed to bolster their team. Banning their signature powers cuts those classes off at the knees. I'll keep an open mind and an eye on the Test Realm, but it's fair to say I still need to be convinced.

With respect to buff stacking, changing the durations was a PvE-focused change, not PvP. Having both the effect magnitude of the later powers increase along with the duration caused you to "sunset" your earlier powers. It was problematic from day 1 and needed to be fixed.

There is another fix for buff stacking coming to PvP, which I have described before-- powers with the same stat buff/debuff will not stack; you can cast multiple versions of them, and they will run concurrently, but only the highest magnitude will apply at any one time. And I am happy to inform the PvE players that this special stacking rule only applies in PvP. You can continue to stack your buffs and protections in PvE and beat the stuffing out of the Nefarious Five.

There's some gear that is very broken (which slipped under my nose before release) and although it would be better to fix those items, to rein them in for the overall good of the game, I also don't want to invalidate the hard work that players put in farming for those items. So, in the interest of fairness for everyone, it's easier to just ban those powers in PvP. (Blood Flames, I am looking primarily at you-- but there are a few others.)

I would not count on seeing any Battle Banners banned in PvP. Battle Banners are designed for PvP-- that's why they have a downside if the opponent takes them out.

And yes, I expect the "meta" to be cyclical, with different strategies holding the top spot until something else comes along to pull them down.

Wow this is a lot of information on what its to come, thank you Ratbeard. With that said, some of the points you have brought up worry me a bit as a Pirate101 PvP enthusiast.

You mention Black Fog as a defense against the Terrorcotta Warriors, yet that's a power only one class learns. What about the other 4 classes? What are they meant to do? What makes the Warriors so strong is their vicious charge. Nine summons that can all reduce an opponent's accuracy by 50% its pretty big. Just two of them hitting a melee unit its enough to make that unit practically useless for 5 turns because of how little it will hit. You have ONE turn max if you are red side to react to the warriors. If you are blue, you have no time to react at all since the warriors will charge after red player's turn. So even the Black Fog defense wouldn't work if you end up in blue side.

I see where you are coming from about banning a class' signature powers, perfectly understandable. Except this doesn't apply to what Technomage is bringing up. The Terrorcotta Warriors are not a signature power to any one class. Leaving them as is will force every 1v1 player to have to wear the robe in ranked in order to stay competitive, as you will see first hand once it comes to test and live. I personally don't suggest a ban, but just toning down the power a bit. Banning its not the way to go if you have the tools to change the way the power works, which KI obviously does.

The warriors currently do too much for how easy it is to summon. They have great offensive capabilities by charging with vicious charge. They have great defensive capabilities with their hold the line. Remove one of those two tools and they will still be useful, just not overwhelming as they are now.

(Continued below..)

Ratbeard on Jul 1, 2015 wrote:

A great defense against the terrorcotta warriors is turning your whole team invisible with Black Fog, and a great defense against Black Fog is surrounding your squish with summoned creatures.

Swashbucklers are supposed to hide and hit hard (and then die...), and Witchdoctors/Privateers are supposed to bolster their team. Banning their signature powers cuts those classes off at the knees. I'll keep an open mind and an eye on the Test Realm, but it's fair to say I still need to be convinced.

With respect to buff stacking, changing the durations was a PvE-focused change, not PvP. Having both the effect magnitude of the later powers increase along with the duration caused you to "sunset" your earlier powers. It was problematic from day 1 and needed to be fixed.

There is another fix for buff stacking coming to PvP, which I have described before-- powers with the same stat buff/debuff will not stack; you can cast multiple versions of them, and they will run concurrently, but only the highest magnitude will apply at any one time. And I am happy to inform the PvE players that this special stacking rule only applies in PvP. You can continue to stack your buffs and protections in PvE and beat the stuffing out of the Nefarious Five.

There's some gear that is very broken (which slipped under my nose before release) and although it would be better to fix those items, to rein them in for the overall good of the game, I also don't want to invalidate the hard work that players put in farming for those items. So, in the interest of fairness for everyone, it's easier to just ban those powers in PvP. (Blood Flames, I am looking primarily at you-- but there are a few others.)

I would not count on seeing any Battle Banners banned in PvP. Battle Banners are designed for PvP-- that's why they have a downside if the opponent takes them out.

And yes, I expect the "meta" to be cyclical, with different strategies holding the top spot until something else comes along to pull them down.

(Part 3 of my posts)

I feel the same way about powers I have strongly spoken against (Black Fog) and the doubloons system. I don't want you guys to ban them entirely, I want you guys to CHANGE them to make them more in line with everything else. It is a mistake and a bad precedent to make to start banning powers and items from PvP when you have the power to change them.

Aside from it being a mistake, your mention of Blood Flames worries me. Are we playing the same Pirate101 PvP game? Blood Flames broken in PvP?

You changed the way hidden works because of how easy it was to get rid of hidden. All it took was a simple AoE attack which most of the time was Gunnery that everyone can train and use from anywhere on the map. This same strategy works against Blood Flames. When your opponent summons them it is the easiest thing in the world to just use gunnery on top of them.

Blood Flames, as you say, it's a very broken power BUT not in PvP. They are broken in PvE for sure, I agree with you a 100% there. I can clear the Smuggler's Arena in an hour with a group of 4 blood flames and 2 frozen tides. But in PvP? They are a joke and most of the time you are better off with an extra heal, shield or attack (or the Warriors robe!) instead of the flames. I would reconsider the ban on this power, not only because of it being a bad precedent, but also because it's an utterly useless ban for PvP.

As for Battle Banners, I would like to correct you a bit Ratbeard. STANDARDS have a downside if the opponent takes them out. The Banners from the grizzly pack and black market have no downside if taken out. They are two very different things. In fact, not only do the Standards have a downside but are generally much weaker too with only affecting a close area around them. While the banners with no downsides affect the whole board. Not saying they should be banned either, but maybe adding that downside to banners wouldn't hurt at all.

With all due respects,
Alex Deathflame (Hawkins)

Alex Hawkins on Jul 7, 2015 wrote:

(Part 3 of my posts)

I feel the same way about powers I have strongly spoken against (Black Fog) and the doubloons system. I don't want you guys to ban them entirely, I want you guys to CHANGE them to make them more in line with everything else. It is a mistake and a bad precedent to make to start banning powers and items from PvP when you have the power to change them.

Aside from it being a mistake, your mention of Blood Flames worries me. Are we playing the same Pirate101 PvP game? Blood Flames broken in PvP?

You changed the way hidden works because of how easy it was to get rid of hidden. All it took was a simple AoE attack which most of the time was Gunnery that everyone can train and use from anywhere on the map. This same strategy works against Blood Flames. When your opponent summons them it is the easiest thing in the world to just use gunnery on top of them.

Blood Flames, as you say, it's a very broken power BUT not in PvP. They are broken in PvE for sure, I agree with you a 100% there. I can clear the Smuggler's Arena in an hour with a group of 4 blood flames and 2 frozen tides. But in PvP? They are a joke and most of the time you are better off with an extra heal, shield or attack (or the Warriors robe!) instead of the flames. I would reconsider the ban on this power, not only because of it being a bad precedent, but also because it's an utterly useless ban for PvP.

As for Battle Banners, I would like to correct you a bit Ratbeard. STANDARDS have a downside if the opponent takes them out. The Banners from the grizzly pack and black market have no downside if taken out. They are two very different things. In fact, not only do the Standards have a downside but are generally much weaker too with only affecting a close area around them. While the banners with no downsides affect the whole board. Not saying they should be banned either, but maybe adding that downside to banners wouldn't hurt at all.

With all due respects,
Alex Deathflame (Hawkins)

false alex, standards do have a downside, any allies affected by banner will attack any of your teams companions and pirates if next to them at the time of beast banner destruction

Ratbeard on Jul 8, 2015 wrote:

Terracotta Warriors will take a hit in PvP due to the changes to buff (debuff) stacking and first turn "fixes."

All durations of applied buffs tick concurrently, so putting 2 or more of the same buff/debuff on someone with the same duration means they'll overlap and expire at the same time.

As I said above, there are definitely some powers which should be nerfed for the good of the game, both PvE and PvP, but as we have the ability to ban powers that are problematic for PvP and leave the PvE players alone, that is absolutely the better course. A PvP ban takes something away from two human players but leaves them on the same footing; nerfing something in PvE takes something away from one human player and leaves him worse off than before-- and for no other reason that the two PvP guys over there need to decrease his fun in order to increase their fun.

Yes, there's powers that are broken (meaning they are not designed or functioning as intended-- eg, Blood Flames) and it would be better to fix them for the health of the game overall, but again-- at what cost and whose expense?

STANDARDS have a downside if the opponent takes them out. The Banners from the grizzly pack and black market have no downside if taken out.

First, a banner and a standard are the same thing; we use the terminology loosely. There's no unwritten rule that says that a standard only affects things near it and a banner affects the whole board, or anything like that. The only hard and fast rule that we work on is that the banners all affect a type of creature.

The Beast Banner absolutely has a downside (verified by both Decius and myself before launch) so if it's not working, that's a bug. You should find that taking out the Beast Banner has a very good chance of making all of the affected creatures go into a sort of "reckless frenzy" and start attacking the nearest creature (usually, each other). I'd be really sad to hear that this wasn't working.

"A PVP ban takes something away from two human players but leaves them on the same footing; nerfing something in PVE takes something away from one human player and leaves him worse off than before -- and for no other reason that the two PVP guys over there need to decrease his fun in order to increase their fun."
Glory Halleluia! AMEN! Preach it, Ratbeard, preach it!
That should be the final answer on Black Fog for nerfing or counters on removing with AOEs.

Ratbeard on Jul 8, 2015 wrote:

Terracotta Warriors will take a hit in PvP due to the changes to buff (debuff) stacking and first turn "fixes."

All durations of applied buffs tick concurrently, so putting 2 or more of the same buff/debuff on someone with the same duration means they'll overlap and expire at the same time.

As I said above, there are definitely some powers which should be nerfed for the good of the game, both PvE and PvP, but as we have the ability to ban powers that are problematic for PvP and leave the PvE players alone, that is absolutely the better course. A PvP ban takes something away from two human players but leaves them on the same footing; nerfing something in PvE takes something away from one human player and leaves him worse off than before-- and for no other reason that the two PvP guys over there need to decrease his fun in order to increase their fun.

Yes, there's powers that are broken (meaning they are not designed or functioning as intended-- eg, Blood Flames) and it would be better to fix them for the health of the game overall, but again-- at what cost and whose expense?

STANDARDS have a downside if the opponent takes them out. The Banners from the grizzly pack and black market have no downside if taken out.

First, a banner and a standard are the same thing; we use the terminology loosely. There's no unwritten rule that says that a standard only affects things near it and a banner affects the whole board, or anything like that. The only hard and fast rule that we work on is that the banners all affect a type of creature.

The Beast Banner absolutely has a downside (verified by both Decius and myself before launch) so if it's not working, that's a bug. You should find that taking out the Beast Banner has a very good chance of making all of the affected creatures go into a sort of "reckless frenzy" and start attacking the nearest creature (usually, each other). I'd be really sad to hear that this wasn't working.

My mistake on the Banner downside, you are absolutely right. It was just a downside that I have personally never seen in action, even when I did test it. I guess I should have had my companions next to one another, my mistake.

I do however feel that not nerfing a power that you clearly see as broken in both PvP and PvE just because you don't want to upset players is the wrong way to go about things. Specially in the case of Blood Flames, they are a problem both in PvP and PvE, and it will come to bite back when you hear complains about how easy the future worlds are simply because of those flames.

I'm just baffled at how a ban seems like a better course of action than just fixing the problem. Specially when the things being considered for a ban (Blood Flames) are not even that strong in PvP to begin with.

Alas, I feel like I'm just repeating many of the same things I have said in the past. The best way to find out the problematic things in PvP is with a large data sample which will only happen once ranked comes out. Perhaps then you will be convinced. For now I am looking forward to what you have in store for us, because just the buff change alone should flip PvP on its head and I'm excited for it.

I do appreciate how much you have communicated with us on this and past topics Ratbeard, for that you have done a great job. I know it might seem like a lot of us just complain nonstop, but I assure you its because many of us love this game just as much as you do and have put countless hours in it. Hopefully I am wrong and my prediction of ranked being dominated by Swashbucklers with Black Fog doesn't become a reality and boring to play.