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Non-PvP Gear!

1
AuthorMessage
Lieutenant
Nov 26, 2010
163
One big thing in the KI Livestream on Thursday we got a major hint about some kind of pvp update being ranked, new battle board battle royal version, or maybe even adding trainable talents if not all! Of course this I'm all excited for if it's to become a reality one big thing I want to talk about is in the ranking system.

First off lets take a big look at some of the main things that would happen.
1. Automatically everyone would be forced to play as a Witchdoctor/Swashbuckler as they are the only 2 classes who can take on any class for any reason with the right gear
2. Imperial Robes of Moo Manchu would become a staple gear pierce. This is way too good of a robe not to have if ranked pvp came out. Mostly if you were a low tier class like Buck in the rank scenerio because it would be a great defense vs the fast rush we already would have to deal with
3. Beast Banner+Nef staff, this is way too good of a strat w/ moo robe not use together as its insane and if you're a witch you can legit fill the board with a load of summons and wither your opponent away!
4. Imperial Boots of Moo Manchu would become a staple, stalling out any Bucks who try to rush R1 and Swash's.

So my point is, fix some of the OP stuff here. My ideas:
1. Make Imperial Robe of Moo Manchu Non-PvP gear
2. Make Banners Non-PvP Gear

Why: this gear is a staple in competitive pvp and there really is no way around it and makes the balance in pvp lean only to Witch+Swash because there competitive viability with black fog and witches being able to still attack but just lose range.
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
the strat mentioned is also available for privateers and muskets, i for one have never lost to a witch in a summon battle, and bucks are also viable still, they can beat any class regardless of gear except muskets, knockback bombs am i right? you mainly play central you dont really know what its like off central, maybe its just cause my specialty is ranged that bucks still seem viable but i dont see a problem with the current meta
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
oh and witches seem very underpowered atm, once again off central they arent the gods that they seem to be
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Why not ban everything dropped by the Nefarious-Five and Moo Manchu? ALL that gear is Op ( a dirty word in PVP ).
"I can't remove/counter/deal with this gear, it's Op and must be banned." I see you have no problems with Death's Bargain or the Masque of the Lotus? what about the Nefarious Staff? Most WD are now using their Beast companions with the Grizzled Heart Banner, making their companions more effective.
When you start banning gear, make it all or nothing.
Lieutenant
Nov 26, 2010
163
anecorbie on Jun 28, 2015 wrote:
Why not ban everything dropped by the Nefarious-Five and Moo Manchu? ALL that gear is Op ( a dirty word in PVP ).
"I can't remove/counter/deal with this gear, it's Op and must be banned." I see you have no problems with Death's Bargain or the Masque of the Lotus? what about the Nefarious Staff? Most WD are now using their Beast companions with the Grizzled Heart Banner, making their companions more effective.
When you start banning gear, make it all or nothing.
That shows you read half my post then commented, never do this please it irritates me. I mentioned the staff and banner, I said make banners non-pvp since most aren't that good pvp wise anyway only one that will be hurt is the bear banner. Nef staff by itself is not OP what so ever (Proven by central pvp)

@Zuto401 :
The problem there is I have Pvp'd with my Witch off central. Never lost a match because Moo Robe+Banner/Staff is OP. I've watched my friend John Walker play Buck in this situation and he got flawless, same here when I use the robe I have a hard time because they can just spam us. I've fought many other privy's with the robe yet to encounter a problem. The Reason I say this IS because I've dealt with it before and it should encourage more people to play and try out some stuff instead of jump to this insanely over powered pay to 2 win which has driven players from Wiz. Why not stop the mistakes before they happen in the future?
Lieutenant
Feb 13, 2013
143
anecorbie on Jun 28, 2015 wrote:
Why not ban everything dropped by the Nefarious-Five and Moo Manchu? ALL that gear is Op ( a dirty word in PVP ).
"I can't remove/counter/deal with this gear, it's Op and must be banned." I see you have no problems with Death's Bargain or the Masque of the Lotus? what about the Nefarious Staff? Most WD are now using their Beast companions with the Grizzled Heart Banner, making their companions more effective.
When you start banning gear, make it all or nothing.
Your joking right do you know how annoying it would be to have came up with all of the stats we have made with this gear the gear they drop is 100% fair only thing that is not fiar is moo Manchus robe.
Ensign
Dec 02, 2014
17
TechnomagePvP on Jun 28, 2015 wrote:
One big thing in the KI Livestream on Thursday we got a major hint about some kind of pvp update being ranked, new battle board battle royal version, or maybe even adding trainable talents if not all! Of course this I'm all excited for if it's to become a reality one big thing I want to talk about is in the ranking system.

First off lets take a big look at some of the main things that would happen.
1. Automatically everyone would be forced to play as a Witchdoctor/Swashbuckler as they are the only 2 classes who can take on any class for any reason with the right gear
2. Imperial Robes of Moo Manchu would become a staple gear pierce. This is way too good of a robe not to have if ranked pvp came out. Mostly if you were a low tier class like Buck in the rank scenerio because it would be a great defense vs the fast rush we already would have to deal with
3. Beast Banner+Nef staff, this is way too good of a strat w/ moo robe not use together as its insane and if you're a witch you can legit fill the board with a load of summons and wither your opponent away!
4. Imperial Boots of Moo Manchu would become a staple, stalling out any Bucks who try to rush R1 and Swash's.

So my point is, fix some of the OP stuff here. My ideas:
1. Make Imperial Robe of Moo Manchu Non-PvP gear
2. Make Banners Non-PvP Gear

Why: this gear is a staple in competitive pvp and there really is no way around it and makes the balance in pvp lean only to Witch+Swash because there competitive viability with black fog and witches being able to still attack but just lose range.
I going be truthfully right here and now

stop complain g there making something new in pvp i don't care if it a little off balance there finely making a update on this stuff they can fix the bugs later i mean players have been waiting for a update on this forever and its not like they can fix it all at once they can put it out there let us test it we give them feed back then they Chang it but it not even out there yet and your already complain g what good dose that do for anyone i mean they may get annoyed with the complain g and say well looks like they don't want this so lets just cancel it you should be thankful there even updating i mean updating takes a lot of work you know its not as easy as just saying it it much more complex and hard work that goes into this stuff right now i can't wait till this update comes out and turhtfully if you battle you own level long as you play it right you can win every match no matter what school you are they can make these updates but it wont do any good because there always going be great players out there that will see op then your going wanna complain about there gear because you don't know how to get it i get sick of seeing players complain about this stuff when really the fact is the player is just good at the game there is nothing that he can do you can't you have to fined your strong points in your own school

long rang and army's
close and lots of health
great at healing and buffing
damge and low health
traps and long rang

each one has were it power gose best and if you use it right you seem op i been a level 65 witchdoctor before with none of this gear and been able to win against players with this gear not because i can summon army's my army's became useless after awhile sure it great to get a little health off the enemy but not the best move i won because i stuck to what my class best at i gave myself buff and used long rang attack while keep away from them
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
the midnightpirate on Jun 29, 2015 wrote:
Your joking right do you know how annoying it would be to have came up with all of the stats we have made with this gear the gear they drop is 100% fair only thing that is not fiar is moo Manchus robe.
I over stated an argument to make a point: when do you start banning equipment or companions? Which ones should be banned? Would it be by player vote or KI decision? Right now as I understand it, Central is making the rules.
When Ranked PVP arrives, those rules may be kept, changed or ignored.
And why is Moo's Robes considered 'unfair', I've been using them in the tower and smuggler's arena; and frankly? I'm not impressed. Maybe they need a privateer to make them truly effective.
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
TechnomagePvP on Jun 29, 2015 wrote:
That shows you read half my post then commented, never do this please it irritates me. I mentioned the staff and banner, I said make banners non-pvp since most aren't that good pvp wise anyway only one that will be hurt is the bear banner. Nef staff by itself is not OP what so ever (Proven by central pvp)

@Zuto401 :
The problem there is I have Pvp'd with my Witch off central. Never lost a match because Moo Robe+Banner/Staff is OP. I've watched my friend John Walker play Buck in this situation and he got flawless, same here when I use the robe I have a hard time because they can just spam us. I've fought many other privy's with the robe yet to encounter a problem. The Reason I say this IS because I've dealt with it before and it should encourage more people to play and try out some stuff instead of jump to this insanely over powered pay to 2 win which has driven players from Wiz. Why not stop the mistakes before they happen in the future?
then those your fighting arent up to par as to those i've been fighting off central, or perhaps my RNG has just been extremely bad in some matches, harry is a good example of it not being OP he won with half health vs my robe, my staff, my banner, nausica, baar, and goronado, all the "OP" things, another is noble kevin bristol, beat all that too as a BUCK, although i will admit his RNG was crazy that game with one shotting me with a mega hidden assassin and flames. This op stuff on wiz hasnt driven you to quit, nor the other millions of players, every game is in some way pay to win, you either pay time, or money, those "dedicated" should have the op gear, whether or not they gained it through spending time or money, the only problem i see with this gear is if its a 4v4 and both teams use said gear the battle board will become too cluttered to even move
Lieutenant
Feb 13, 2013
143
anecorbie on Jun 29, 2015 wrote:
I over stated an argument to make a point: when do you start banning equipment or companions? Which ones should be banned? Would it be by player vote or KI decision? Right now as I understand it, Central is making the rules.
When Ranked PVP arrives, those rules may be kept, changed or ignored.
And why is Moo's Robes considered 'unfair', I've been using them in the tower and smuggler's arena; and frankly? I'm not impressed. Maybe they need a privateer to make them truly effective.
Moo robe is way to op in 1v1 have you ever got mass reduced then when you try to move have your dodge lowered by half then when you kill them all your companions are at half life trust me when I say it's more op in pvp then tower and arena
Developer
Since Pirate launched, I've seen people claim that all 5 different classes are OP at one time or another. One day somebody is complaining that Swashbucklers with Black Fog are unbeatable, the next day somebody is claiming that Witchdoctors with summons are unbeatable, the next day somebody is claiming that anybody with a Beast Banner is unbeatable, or they're singling out Nausicaa, or Baar, or Goronado, or a particular power like Reckless Frenzy, or... you get the idea. There's an ebb and flow to "best strategy" as strategies become dominant, other strategies become popular in order to defeat them, and yet other strategies become popular to beat those. The competitive environment is cyclical by nature, and you can also count on every new update making new strategies possible and "breaking" your meta.

I can count the number of "banned" powers and items on one hand. There will be windows to make changes to that list-- both before any PvP update goes live, as well as between PvP seasons. If the meta becomes "locked" or stagnant due to a single dominant strategy, we will take steps-- slow, deliberate steps.

But, and I can't stress this enough, you have all been playing in an extremely distorted format for a while now (by this I mean the long list of Central "house rules.") House rules tend to have a cascading effect-- each one distorting the playing field and requiring a new house rule to fix the last one.

If you're not already doing so, I would advise you to start at least mentally preparing yourself to play in the KI environment. For some of you, it's going to feel like the Wild West for a while as we work out the kinks!
Lieutenant
Nov 26, 2010
163
King Leo 46 on Jun 29, 2015 wrote:
I going be truthfully right here and now

stop complain g there making something new in pvp i don't care if it a little off balance there finely making a update on this stuff they can fix the bugs later i mean players have been waiting for a update on this forever and its not like they can fix it all at once they can put it out there let us test it we give them feed back then they Chang it but it not even out there yet and your already complain g what good dose that do for anyone i mean they may get annoyed with the complain g and say well looks like they don't want this so lets just cancel it you should be thankful there even updating i mean updating takes a lot of work you know its not as easy as just saying it it much more complex and hard work that goes into this stuff right now i can't wait till this update comes out and turhtfully if you battle you own level long as you play it right you can win every match no matter what school you are they can make these updates but it wont do any good because there always going be great players out there that will see op then your going wanna complain about there gear because you don't know how to get it i get sick of seeing players complain about this stuff when really the fact is the player is just good at the game there is nothing that he can do you can't you have to fined your strong points in your own school

long rang and army's
close and lots of health
great at healing and buffing
damge and low health
traps and long rang

each one has were it power gose best and if you use it right you seem op i been a level 65 witchdoctor before with none of this gear and been able to win against players with this gear not because i can summon army's my army's became useless after awhile sure it great to get a little health off the enemy but not the best move i won because i stuck to what my class best at i gave myself buff and used long rang attack while keep away from them
The key point of my post here is... Lets try to fix things as much as we can before they hit test realm so we wont need to wait another 5 months after with people all finally realizing how bull it is and complaining to finally get this up there. Trust me a lot of players mostly like these already concerned PvP 'Noobs' will want this and also its good for balance IG.

Lets be honest this is going to be a big update, not just Ranked pvp but also the changes Ratbeard talked about long ago along with ranked (A guess) so adding a Non-PvP system for gear is prob nothing to add to mostly 3-6 pieces of gear.
Lieutenant
Nov 26, 2010
163
zuto4011a on Jun 30, 2015 wrote:
then those your fighting arent up to par as to those i've been fighting off central, or perhaps my RNG has just been extremely bad in some matches, harry is a good example of it not being OP he won with half health vs my robe, my staff, my banner, nausica, baar, and goronado, all the "OP" things, another is noble kevin bristol, beat all that too as a BUCK, although i will admit his RNG was crazy that game with one shotting me with a mega hidden assassin and flames. This op stuff on wiz hasnt driven you to quit, nor the other millions of players, every game is in some way pay to win, you either pay time, or money, those "dedicated" should have the op gear, whether or not they gained it through spending time or money, the only problem i see with this gear is if its a 4v4 and both teams use said gear the battle board will become too cluttered to even move
You pointed out a big thing with 4v4 that will become an issue, we have to think about this stuff before its thrown out and said 'buy it or lose' because wasn't Pirates suppose to NOT make the same mistakes as Wiz? So lets try to add some limits to stuff like Moo Robe and Banners. I mean there's still a lot of other gear to use out there why make such over powered, pay2win staple gear IF we can do 1 little thing before it even hits test to ensure the balance of the game and its future because if we don't, Moo Robe will forever be the best ranked robe because unless there is another robe like it that gets even better summons the 9 vicious charges will always come in hand plus the major defense being a 3x3 wall with HtL. Its just too much... Also, I don't play Buck as no rules I said this earlier if you read Rob I only play Witch because they're OP if you play smart -.-
Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
I am on the side that the only things truly unfair/OP in Pirate101 PvP are Black Fog and Doubloons. Everything else, including the staff + banner strategy, Terror-cotta Warriors and/or Nausica, can be outplayed and beaten. I think you all have already heard enough about the Black Fog and Doubloons topic from me, so I won't get into that here.

However, Rob just brought up a very good point in regards to these x9 summons powers (staff and moo robe) and 4v4s. Imagine a 4v4 where all 8 players have the Moo robe and they summon all 72 of those Warriors at once. A duel like that would take hours on end to finish!

This is not even about the Warriors or staff being OP in 4v4, it's about how time consuming each turn would be with 8 pirates, 24 companion, 1 to 8 pets, 9 to 72 Warriors, 9 to 72 Scorpions, and whatever other summons people might bring to the field (Baar's summons, any of the other bears' summons, Witch's summons, etc). Just the idea of having to wait 15+mins per turn just for the summons/pets to move each turn would scare me from ever doing 3v3 or 4v4 PvP.

Let's not pretend people wouldn't do something like this. If it gives them a clear advantage (which having so many summons would vs a team with no summons), people WILL do it to win in ranked. Even if all the community looks down on it, if it's in the game and not an exploit, people will see it as fair game and do it in order to win ranked games. Case in point being how bad chain stunning was back in the early days of Wizard101 PvP even when most of the community looked down on it.

While I don't agree with all of Technomage's points, if it would prevent a situation like the one described above in 3v3s and 4v4s, then I'm all for banning the moo robe from ranked PvP.

Instead of doing that though, KI could always just make a hard cap on the amount of summons that each team can have on the field. That would be a better way to fix the time consuming problem from above.
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
TechnomagePvP on Jun 30, 2015 wrote:
You pointed out a big thing with 4v4 that will become an issue, we have to think about this stuff before its thrown out and said 'buy it or lose' because wasn't Pirates suppose to NOT make the same mistakes as Wiz? So lets try to add some limits to stuff like Moo Robe and Banners. I mean there's still a lot of other gear to use out there why make such over powered, pay2win staple gear IF we can do 1 little thing before it even hits test to ensure the balance of the game and its future because if we don't, Moo Robe will forever be the best ranked robe because unless there is another robe like it that gets even better summons the 9 vicious charges will always come in hand plus the major defense being a 3x3 wall with HtL. Its just too much... Also, I don't play Buck as no rules I said this earlier if you read Rob I only play Witch because they're OP if you play smart -.-
if you make one mistake against a good opponent with witch your dead, doesnt matter what you have, one mistake against a good opponent and your entire strategy collapses, your only trying to limit one banner because people are using it to its full potential, the other banners are too far and few to tell how useful they are, very few if any top pvpers and strategy makers have the black market banners, its unfair to ban everything for those who worked hard for them, whether it was at a job irl or farming, should we also ban pets because i can think of a combination on a pet thats far more "op" then moo robe
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Ratbeard on Jun 30, 2015 wrote:
Since Pirate launched, I've seen people claim that all 5 different classes are OP at one time or another. One day somebody is complaining that Swashbucklers with Black Fog are unbeatable, the next day somebody is claiming that Witchdoctors with summons are unbeatable, the next day somebody is claiming that anybody with a Beast Banner is unbeatable, or they're singling out Nausicaa, or Baar, or Goronado, or a particular power like Reckless Frenzy, or... you get the idea. There's an ebb and flow to "best strategy" as strategies become dominant, other strategies become popular in order to defeat them, and yet other strategies become popular to beat those. The competitive environment is cyclical by nature, and you can also count on every new update making new strategies possible and "breaking" your meta.

I can count the number of "banned" powers and items on one hand. There will be windows to make changes to that list-- both before any PvP update goes live, as well as between PvP seasons. If the meta becomes "locked" or stagnant due to a single dominant strategy, we will take steps-- slow, deliberate steps.

But, and I can't stress this enough, you have all been playing in an extremely distorted format for a while now (by this I mean the long list of Central "house rules.") House rules tend to have a cascading effect-- each one distorting the playing field and requiring a new house rule to fix the last one.

If you're not already doing so, I would advise you to start at least mentally preparing yourself to play in the KI environment. For some of you, it's going to feel like the Wild West for a while as we work out the kinks!
the central rules are why i dont like central, the rules seem mostly focused on reducing the abilities of privateers by removing a power on all our top gear which is forts and forcing the buff class to try to slug it out with bucks and swashbucklers
First Mate
Dec 29, 2012
479
TechnomagePvP on Jun 30, 2015 wrote:
The key point of my post here is... Lets try to fix things as much as we can before they hit test realm so we wont need to wait another 5 months after with people all finally realizing how bull it is and complaining to finally get this up there. Trust me a lot of players mostly like these already concerned PvP 'Noobs' will want this and also its good for balance IG.

Lets be honest this is going to be a big update, not just Ranked pvp but also the changes Ratbeard talked about long ago along with ranked (A guess) so adding a Non-PvP system for gear is prob nothing to add to mostly 3-6 pieces of gear.
You are assuming the KI team isn't already watching the in game data and have been making adjustments behind the scenes in anticipation of Ranked PvP test realm launch, although test realm is where all the "mass effects" are more apparent. Ratbeard has indicated that a class balance scrub will happen before Ranked PvP launches.

Review the following post from Ratbeard:

https://www.pirate101.com/forum/the-spar-chamber/the-future-of-pvp-8ad6a4194882c92801489ac839a04df3/8ad6a4144882c93601489f32dc1b30f3?fromSearchResult=true#8ad6a4144882c93601489f32dc1b30f3

1.) I believe buff stacking was already fixed (with the changed round lengths).
2.) We are still awaiting multiple tier practice halls and different options...like doubloons or not (they may come with the Ranked PvP test realm launch not necessarily prior).
3.) The most important statement in that post is the last....if the gear is in game it is intended to be used in PvP. He did indicate that there were a handful of problematic powers, talents, and gear.

Wizard101 has a meta that changes over time and appears to favor some classes over others at certain points in the season. I can assure you that will continue in Pirate101 (and any game that offers PvP) based on mostly non-holistic perceptions. This is even if they banned the gear you suggested (as some other "OP" strategy will replace your mentioned strategy and will be subsequently requested to be removed, until we are left with non-unique gear or powers).
First Mate
Dec 24, 2009
413
TechnomagePvP on Jun 28, 2015 wrote:
One big thing in the KI Livestream on Thursday we got a major hint about some kind of pvp update being ranked, new battle board battle royal version, or maybe even adding trainable talents if not all! Of course this I'm all excited for if it's to become a reality one big thing I want to talk about is in the ranking system.

First off lets take a big look at some of the main things that would happen.
1. Automatically everyone would be forced to play as a Witchdoctor/Swashbuckler as they are the only 2 classes who can take on any class for any reason with the right gear
2. Imperial Robes of Moo Manchu would become a staple gear pierce. This is way too good of a robe not to have if ranked pvp came out. Mostly if you were a low tier class like Buck in the rank scenerio because it would be a great defense vs the fast rush we already would have to deal with
3. Beast Banner+Nef staff, this is way too good of a strat w/ moo robe not use together as its insane and if you're a witch you can legit fill the board with a load of summons and wither your opponent away!
4. Imperial Boots of Moo Manchu would become a staple, stalling out any Bucks who try to rush R1 and Swash's.

So my point is, fix some of the OP stuff here. My ideas:
1. Make Imperial Robe of Moo Manchu Non-PvP gear
2. Make Banners Non-PvP Gear

Why: this gear is a staple in competitive pvp and there really is no way around it and makes the balance in pvp lean only to Witch+Swash because there competitive viability with black fog and witches being able to still attack but just lose range.
I first saw your post when it had no replies and I thought about posting, but I didn't, since it didn't especially concern me seeing that I don't have Imperial Moo Robes and the one banner I have I don't use anymore.

Then I saw the posts up to the Midnight Pirate's first post, but I still said nothing for the same reasons.

Now that I've seen the Terror-Cotta Troupe in action, I'm going to step in. While I agree, that kind of accuracy debuff is quite a sight(or I guess it couldn't be a sight since it lowers accuracy), I don't see any reason to ban anything. There will always be something considered OP, it's just a part of the game. However there's always a counter strategy, it just needs to be found. When you ban this, what becomes OP? Valor's Armor? Why isn't that considered OP? Valor's Armor absorbs over 1000 damage for max pirates. My base of assassin's strike is about 970(my weapon power is 346). Unless I drop a poison, that valor's armor is up even after one assassin's strike(unless I crit). There's always something OP. Just think for a minute what you can do to counter it. I think and have it easiest. just need to Black Fog and walk around them(not saying it's ideal, but it's something). have stuff like Mojo Blast and summons. Even have stuff like bombs(knockback or otherwise) or Hurricane Round. Bonnie could take a good chunk of their health. It's not like they have a lot.

Fearless Dolan Grant lvl65
Developer
A great defense against the terrorcotta warriors is turning your whole team invisible with Black Fog, and a great defense against Black Fog is surrounding your squish with summoned creatures.

Swashbucklers are supposed to hide and hit hard (and then die...), and Witchdoctors/Privateers are supposed to bolster their team. Banning their signature powers cuts those classes off at the knees. I'll keep an open mind and an eye on the Test Realm, but it's fair to say I still need to be convinced.

With respect to buff stacking, changing the durations was a PvE-focused change, not PvP. Having both the effect magnitude of the later powers increase along with the duration caused you to "sunset" your earlier powers. It was problematic from day 1 and needed to be fixed.

There is another fix for buff stacking coming to PvP, which I have described before-- powers with the same stat buff/debuff will not stack; you can cast multiple versions of them, and they will run concurrently, but only the highest magnitude will apply at any one time. And I am happy to inform the PvE players that this special stacking rule only applies in PvP. You can continue to stack your buffs and protections in PvE and beat the stuffing out of the Nefarious Five.

There's some gear that is very broken (which slipped under my nose before release) and although it would be better to fix those items, to rein them in for the overall good of the game, I also don't want to invalidate the hard work that players put in farming for those items. So, in the interest of fairness for everyone, it's easier to just ban those powers in PvP. (Blood Flames, I am looking primarily at you-- but there are a few others.)

I would not count on seeing any Battle Banners banned in PvP. Battle Banners are designed for PvP-- that's why they have a downside if the opponent takes them out.

And yes, I expect the "meta" to be cyclical, with different strategies holding the top spot until something else comes along to pull them down.
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Alex Hawkins on Jun 30, 2015 wrote:
I am on the side that the only things truly unfair/OP in Pirate101 PvP are Black Fog and Doubloons. Everything else, including the staff + banner strategy, Terror-cotta Warriors and/or Nausica, can be outplayed and beaten. I think you all have already heard enough about the Black Fog and Doubloons topic from me, so I won't get into that here.

However, Rob just brought up a very good point in regards to these x9 summons powers (staff and moo robe) and 4v4s. Imagine a 4v4 where all 8 players have the Moo robe and they summon all 72 of those Warriors at once. A duel like that would take hours on end to finish!

This is not even about the Warriors or staff being OP in 4v4, it's about how time consuming each turn would be with 8 pirates, 24 companion, 1 to 8 pets, 9 to 72 Warriors, 9 to 72 Scorpions, and whatever other summons people might bring to the field (Baar's summons, any of the other bears' summons, Witch's summons, etc). Just the idea of having to wait 15+mins per turn just for the summons/pets to move each turn would scare me from ever doing 3v3 or 4v4 PvP.

Let's not pretend people wouldn't do something like this. If it gives them a clear advantage (which having so many summons would vs a team with no summons), people WILL do it to win in ranked. Even if all the community looks down on it, if it's in the game and not an exploit, people will see it as fair game and do it in order to win ranked games. Case in point being how bad chain stunning was back in the early days of Wizard101 PvP even when most of the community looked down on it.

While I don't agree with all of Technomage's points, if it would prevent a situation like the one described above in 3v3s and 4v4s, then I'm all for banning the moo robe from ranked PvP.

Instead of doing that though, KI could always just make a hard cap on the amount of summons that each team can have on the field. That would be a better way to fix the time consuming problem from above.
there is always the option to implement into the game a skip allies animation button you can press before searching for a match, then you'll be matched with those who also pressed that button
Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
zuto4011a on Jul 1, 2015 wrote:
there is always the option to implement into the game a skip allies animation button you can press before searching for a match, then you'll be matched with those who also pressed that button
Or just set a watchdog that will skip said animations if they go over a certain amount of time.

(Note: Could this be implemented in the hydra fight? I was doing the fight once and it was skipping our turns the animation was so long. the game kept asking everyone if we wanted to stay in combat, and the hydra heads each got to attack multiple times)
Lieutenant
Feb 13, 2013
143
Ratbeard on Jun 30, 2015 wrote:
Since Pirate launched, I've seen people claim that all 5 different classes are OP at one time or another. One day somebody is complaining that Swashbucklers with Black Fog are unbeatable, the next day somebody is claiming that Witchdoctors with summons are unbeatable, the next day somebody is claiming that anybody with a Beast Banner is unbeatable, or they're singling out Nausicaa, or Baar, or Goronado, or a particular power like Reckless Frenzy, or... you get the idea. There's an ebb and flow to "best strategy" as strategies become dominant, other strategies become popular in order to defeat them, and yet other strategies become popular to beat those. The competitive environment is cyclical by nature, and you can also count on every new update making new strategies possible and "breaking" your meta.

I can count the number of "banned" powers and items on one hand. There will be windows to make changes to that list-- both before any PvP update goes live, as well as between PvP seasons. If the meta becomes "locked" or stagnant due to a single dominant strategy, we will take steps-- slow, deliberate steps.

But, and I can't stress this enough, you have all been playing in an extremely distorted format for a while now (by this I mean the long list of Central "house rules.") House rules tend to have a cascading effect-- each one distorting the playing field and requiring a new house rule to fix the last one.

If you're not already doing so, I would advise you to start at least mentally preparing yourself to play in the KI environment. For some of you, it's going to feel like the Wild West for a while as we work out the kinks!
See the thing about that is if your going vs another buckler they use that then you fog they could fog and after your fog runs out they could purge you and have goro charge your pirate and nausica Along with fan and then they will solo the rest of the companions no with the summons buffed
Lieutenant
Nov 26, 2010
163
Ratbeard on Jul 1, 2015 wrote:
A great defense against the terrorcotta warriors is turning your whole team invisible with Black Fog, and a great defense against Black Fog is surrounding your squish with summoned creatures.

Swashbucklers are supposed to hide and hit hard (and then die...), and Witchdoctors/Privateers are supposed to bolster their team. Banning their signature powers cuts those classes off at the knees. I'll keep an open mind and an eye on the Test Realm, but it's fair to say I still need to be convinced.

With respect to buff stacking, changing the durations was a PvE-focused change, not PvP. Having both the effect magnitude of the later powers increase along with the duration caused you to "sunset" your earlier powers. It was problematic from day 1 and needed to be fixed.

There is another fix for buff stacking coming to PvP, which I have described before-- powers with the same stat buff/debuff will not stack; you can cast multiple versions of them, and they will run concurrently, but only the highest magnitude will apply at any one time. And I am happy to inform the PvE players that this special stacking rule only applies in PvP. You can continue to stack your buffs and protections in PvE and beat the stuffing out of the Nefarious Five.

There's some gear that is very broken (which slipped under my nose before release) and although it would be better to fix those items, to rein them in for the overall good of the game, I also don't want to invalidate the hard work that players put in farming for those items. So, in the interest of fairness for everyone, it's easier to just ban those powers in PvP. (Blood Flames, I am looking primarily at you-- but there are a few others.)

I would not count on seeing any Battle Banners banned in PvP. Battle Banners are designed for PvP-- that's why they have a downside if the opponent takes them out.

And yes, I expect the "meta" to be cyclical, with different strategies holding the top spot until something else comes along to pull them down.
Well lets get started, before so no offense at all I agree some of your ideas are going to easily balance out pvp but here is what I have to say specifically for a few comments.

1. Black fog is ONLY available to swashbucklers, how do Buccaneers react to a mass swarm of summons? I mean with your high dodge you can't rely right away on vengeance strike plus how do Bucks deal with a Swashbuckler with Moo Robe as well in that combo?

My idea: Return Fog to the Nefarious Knives. Don't get me wrong I understand before why they were removed BUT if you think about it, barely any matches between 2 good players will there be a chance where 2 fogs will go on an entire team twice because a lot can happen when you fog the first time and try to rush in. Yes you could save both fogs and go to the middle, fog hit retreat and fog again but if your opponent doesn't take the chance during then to at least focus down one companions that's there own fault and they deserve to lose. This also gives Bucks a chance to compete vs the intense unfair swarm of summons plus go par to par with Bucklers if they play right.

2. Bloods Robe

Ok why? Why do you think this is broken? Ok let me explain why we complain about moo robe, one they each have 900 HP with 3 powers Vicious Charge for quick charging if they see anyone, if you frozen tide them they will use either there sharks fury, or levy call, I heard they have whales might as well but personally I've never seen mine or others use it maybe because I'm not dumb enough to frozen tide them lol. Also they deal major amount of damage and can critical since there Bucks, only other Buccaneer units use strength so if they focus on your muskets cause of RNG then you may get more damage done to them then you expected.

Blood flames yes deal 1k each, and can stick around after BUT they rarely end up doing much more then making your opponents pirate waste gunnery. Gunnery can destroy these right off the bat, like its a joke, any AOE counters this.

~Jeremy
Lieutenant
Nov 26, 2010
163
the midnightpirate on Jul 3, 2015 wrote:
See the thing about that is if your going vs another buckler they use that then you fog they could fog and after your fog runs out they could purge you and have goro charge your pirate and nausica Along with fan and then they will solo the rest of the companions no with the summons buffed
That's why in Buckler vs Buckler you just don't Fog first duh. That's just common strategy you can't use that as a situation here.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
TechnomagePvP on Jul 6, 2015 wrote:
Well lets get started, before so no offense at all I agree some of your ideas are going to easily balance out pvp but here is what I have to say specifically for a few comments.

1. Black fog is ONLY available to swashbucklers, how do Buccaneers react to a mass swarm of summons? I mean with your high dodge you can't rely right away on vengeance strike plus how do Bucks deal with a Swashbuckler with Moo Robe as well in that combo?

My idea: Return Fog to the Nefarious Knives. Don't get me wrong I understand before why they were removed BUT if you think about it, barely any matches between 2 good players will there be a chance where 2 fogs will go on an entire team twice because a lot can happen when you fog the first time and try to rush in. Yes you could save both fogs and go to the middle, fog hit retreat and fog again but if your opponent doesn't take the chance during then to at least focus down one companions that's there own fault and they deserve to lose. This also gives Bucks a chance to compete vs the intense unfair swarm of summons plus go par to par with Bucklers if they play right.

2. Bloods Robe

Ok why? Why do you think this is broken? Ok let me explain why we complain about moo robe, one they each have 900 HP with 3 powers Vicious Charge for quick charging if they see anyone, if you frozen tide them they will use either there sharks fury, or levy call, I heard they have whales might as well but personally I've never seen mine or others use it maybe because I'm not dumb enough to frozen tide them lol. Also they deal major amount of damage and can critical since there Bucks, only other Buccaneer units use strength so if they focus on your muskets cause of RNG then you may get more damage done to them then you expected.

Blood flames yes deal 1k each, and can stick around after BUT they rarely end up doing much more then making your opponents pirate waste gunnery. Gunnery can destroy these right off the bat, like its a joke, any AOE counters this.

~Jeremy
I have seen the nefarious five take out the terror - cotta in ONE round ( primarily the reason I don't use them anymore ). So it should be no problem for PVP players to do the same.
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