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Not fun... thanks to black fog

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AuthorMessage
Ensign
Mar 18, 2015
35
zuto4011a on Aug 12, 2015 wrote:
very few privateers make it high in ranked, i havent done much ranked(i'm only 269 rating) but i havent met another privateer at all in ranked
Yea, I haven't encountered a single Privateer opponent, but I must say that it is extremely easy for a Swashbuckler captain with Nausica, Fan, Toro (or Subodai) to just Fog, charge, and kill 2/4 companions within a turn. I can Walk in Darkness to protect my captain, and I have one turn to place up a shield. Other than those two options, Privys simply can't defend against Black Fog, and I know I'm going to hear an argument about Swashbucklers not always drawing Fog, but you can tell there is an issue if one power is DEFINING a class.
Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Ratbeard on Aug 12, 2015 wrote:
I agree that Witch and Privy need help and I have a huge (really fun) list of stuff to bring to them.

As for Black Fog (broken record time) there is not a direct counter for it.

As in, "You do hide? Ok, I just do this simple thing and unhide you."

Countering the swashbuckler's specific, intended class design requires planning in advance, it requires sacrifice, it requires successful execution, and it sometimes requires the luck of the draw. If you're looking for "consistency" that would in any way obviate those requirements, you're on the wrong track.

Every class needs to be able to come back from 3-vs-4. Somebody has to lose the first guy. So figure out which guy you are willing to sacrifice to the swashbuckler, and then punish him for the trade.

There's a reason we use a chess piece to represent your companions.
Does this mean we will get a Ace similar to how buccaneers have reckless frenzy and swashbucklers have black fog that other classes can't get? Cause I'm sorry but Dress the line isn't exactly strong /: and just about everyone has valors fort and armors
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Aquilus99 on Aug 12, 2015 wrote:
Yea, I haven't encountered a single Privateer opponent, but I must say that it is extremely easy for a Swashbuckler captain with Nausica, Fan, Toro (or Subodai) to just Fog, charge, and kill 2/4 companions within a turn. I can Walk in Darkness to protect my captain, and I have one turn to place up a shield. Other than those two options, Privys simply can't defend against Black Fog, and I know I'm going to hear an argument about Swashbucklers not always drawing Fog, but you can tell there is an issue if one power is DEFINING a class.
im paragon now and still have not met another privy in 1v1, i have met a few in royale though
Ensign
Mar 18, 2015
35
Ratbeard on Aug 12, 2015 wrote:
I agree that Witch and Privy need help and I have a huge (really fun) list of stuff to bring to them.

As for Black Fog (broken record time) there is not a direct counter for it.

As in, "You do hide? Ok, I just do this simple thing and unhide you."

Countering the swashbuckler's specific, intended class design requires planning in advance, it requires sacrifice, it requires successful execution, and it sometimes requires the luck of the draw. If you're looking for "consistency" that would in any way obviate those requirements, you're on the wrong track.

Every class needs to be able to come back from 3-vs-4. Somebody has to lose the first guy. So figure out which guy you are willing to sacrifice to the swashbuckler, and then punish him for the trade.

There's a reason we use a chess piece to represent your companions.
Oooh! I can't wait for these changes Ratbeard!
Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
zuto4011a on Aug 12, 2015 wrote:
im paragon now and still have not met another privy in 1v1, i have met a few in royale though
I'm stuck at hero rank 250 /: keep winning 2 losing 1 then going back down
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Aquilus99 on Aug 12, 2015 wrote:
Yea, I haven't encountered a single Privateer opponent, but I must say that it is extremely easy for a Swashbuckler captain with Nausica, Fan, Toro (or Subodai) to just Fog, charge, and kill 2/4 companions within a turn. I can Walk in Darkness to protect my captain, and I have one turn to place up a shield. Other than those two options, Privys simply can't defend against Black Fog, and I know I'm going to hear an argument about Swashbucklers not always drawing Fog, but you can tell there is an issue if one power is DEFINING a class.
If this is defining my class, then this indicates that swashbucklers need more team buff powers, give us a way to shield us and our companions, a way to strengthen our attacks. one that actually lasts 5 rounds regardless of use. One that doesn't leave us exposed to power assaults on us and our companions.
Does that sound good to you? If it doesn't - then stop dumping on my sole team buff that does everything I described in the above statement!
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Ratbeard on Aug 12, 2015 wrote:
I agree that Witch and Privy need help and I have a huge (really fun) list of stuff to bring to them.

As for Black Fog (broken record time) there is not a direct counter for it.

As in, "You do hide? Ok, I just do this simple thing and unhide you."

Countering the swashbuckler's specific, intended class design requires planning in advance, it requires sacrifice, it requires successful execution, and it sometimes requires the luck of the draw. If you're looking for "consistency" that would in any way obviate those requirements, you're on the wrong track.

Every class needs to be able to come back from 3-vs-4. Somebody has to lose the first guy. So figure out which guy you are willing to sacrifice to the swashbuckler, and then punish him for the trade.

There's a reason we use a chess piece to represent your companions.
i dont agree with sacrificing someone, i'm stubborn and refuse to lose anyone to fog although i certainly do punish them for trying
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Sunny Wolf on Aug 12, 2015 wrote:
I'm stuck at hero rank 250 /: keep winning 2 losing 1 then going back down
are you trying melee privy or staffy privy?
Ensign
Mar 18, 2015
35
anecorbie on Aug 12, 2015 wrote:
If this is defining my class, then this indicates that swashbucklers need more team buff powers, give us a way to shield us and our companions, a way to strengthen our attacks. one that actually lasts 5 rounds regardless of use. One that doesn't leave us exposed to power assaults on us and our companions.
Does that sound good to you? If it doesn't - then stop dumping on my sole team buff that does everything I described in the above statement!
I don't mind Swashbucklers receiving a new team buff for the removal of Black Fog from PVP or additional powers for other classes. Valor's Rampart looks interesting for Privateers (a Valor's Fortress group protection would be even better!), and I can't wait for it to come to our decks. The current Valor's Rampart weapon isn't worth the damage sacrifice a Dragon Axe of Doom of the Staff of Power might have.

Moreover, all the top tier team buffs last three turns, with Fog being the only exception and lasting a full five turns. The turn issue isn't as much as a problem as the double damage. Currently, the Hide mechanics work well, but simply doubling the damage of yourself and your companions is too overwhelming for an opposing player. The new companion buff allows more Blade Storms and Relentlesses to go around, strengthening a group power rush.

As a Privateer, whenever a Buck prepares a charge with Highland, I always Zeal to deflect the Relentlesses. However, Bucklers can either stall Zeal out or simply assassinate my captain or 2 companions with four 2x-3x damage cards.
Petty Officer
Jan 03, 2010
95
Aquilus99 on Aug 12, 2015 wrote:
I don't mind Swashbucklers receiving a new team buff for the removal of Black Fog from PVP or additional powers for other classes. Valor's Rampart looks interesting for Privateers (a Valor's Fortress group protection would be even better!), and I can't wait for it to come to our decks. The current Valor's Rampart weapon isn't worth the damage sacrifice a Dragon Axe of Doom of the Staff of Power might have.

Moreover, all the top tier team buffs last three turns, with Fog being the only exception and lasting a full five turns. The turn issue isn't as much as a problem as the double damage. Currently, the Hide mechanics work well, but simply doubling the damage of yourself and your companions is too overwhelming for an opposing player. The new companion buff allows more Blade Storms and Relentlesses to go around, strengthening a group power rush.

As a Privateer, whenever a Buck prepares a charge with Highland, I always Zeal to deflect the Relentlesses. However, Bucklers can either stall Zeal out or simply assassinate my captain or 2 companions with four 2x-3x damage cards.
Not that I disagree at all, but I think it should be taken into account that Fog is the ONLY team buff swashbucklers get by themselves. Every other class has access to not just a few, but multiple team buffs, that can quite easily over power a buckler's team. Privateers and their critical/accuracy/dodge buffs alone make the biggest difference in a lot of battles despite their overall lack of superiority, but things were made the way they are for a reason. Also, this would explain why Fan and Toro are pretty popular choices among bucklers, they are actually more team players than the captain because of that one buff they both have.

Now swashbucklers are undoubtedly the "glass canon" class, and they truly wont be able to take down a wall without paying for it half of the time if it doesn't crack the first strike they hit it with. Bucklers are pretty squishy aswell, but that is also the line they fight on (the brink) if they are hit with even a single solid hit.

In this case, they can hide (for a good while), but they can't run forever.
Lieutenant
Nov 28, 2014
138
stormy quentin ver... on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
Ratbeard, once I would just like to mention that it seems like the majority of players at a higher rank seem to swashbucklers. This is just based on my own observations and on other players'. I know you have heard a lot about black fog already, but I hope that you can keep an eye on how things are going in this season so far. If the top rankings are dominated by swashbucklers then it might be an indication that something should change.

I am mostly referring to higher ranked matches. At the start it seemed like there was more variety with different classes involved, but once I (temporarily) hit paragon I faced almost all swashbucklers, and facing black fog is not fun.
Agreed, why KI is not doing anything about this when most high ranked PvP players say that its overpowered is still a mystery to me
First Mate
Dec 24, 2009
413
zuto4011a on Aug 12, 2015 wrote:
im paragon now and still have not met another privy in 1v1, i have met a few in royale though
It's funny I keep seeing these posts. I've only done one 1v1 match and it was against a privateer. I still need to get around to Battle Royale.

Fearless Dolan Grant lvl65
Ensign
Mar 18, 2015
35
Wolf SkullRider on Aug 14, 2015 wrote:
Not that I disagree at all, but I think it should be taken into account that Fog is the ONLY team buff swashbucklers get by themselves. Every other class has access to not just a few, but multiple team buffs, that can quite easily over power a buckler's team. Privateers and their critical/accuracy/dodge buffs alone make the biggest difference in a lot of battles despite their overall lack of superiority, but things were made the way they are for a reason. Also, this would explain why Fan and Toro are pretty popular choices among bucklers, they are actually more team players than the captain because of that one buff they both have.

Now swashbucklers are undoubtedly the "glass canon" class, and they truly wont be able to take down a wall without paying for it half of the time if it doesn't crack the first strike they hit it with. Bucklers are pretty squishy aswell, but that is also the line they fight on (the brink) if they are hit with even a single solid hit.

In this case, they can hide (for a good while), but they can't run forever.
Well, the problem is that unless you are a Buccaneer captain with Vengeance Strike 3 and Blade Storm 3, another Buckler with Fog, or a AOE long ranged class (Musket, Witch), you cannot really defend against a Black Fog assault. Privateers do have more team buffs, but items such as Zeal and Espirit are easily worn out with Walk in Darkness or Fog. Not to mention the lack of damage Privateer captains do without their companions...
Ensign
May 21, 2012
20
Middle of the road musket here - about 40 matches and assorted royale under my belt now, sitting at about 200-ish points. I've found a workable party/strategy/mindset to help with the swashbuckler issue, I *usually* get the win, or at least get really close.

FWIW, I think that having to run a party and gear set at all times specifically against the chance I may face swashbucklers is indication of a problem. However, the problem isn't Fog itself; it is Fog + something else. Fog + armor stack, Fog + robes, etc, always something not native to the swashbuckler class.

If you want to fix the Fog and robes issue, it seems there is a simple enough answer. Have summon spells break you out of Hidden. The hidden person (not just buckler) has a choice - the same tactical choices and sacrifices their opponents have to make to deal with Fog or Hide.

Fog and armor stack is a little less clear in my mind. Again, I think the issue here isn't Fog, but with armor stacking. The swashbuckler class (at least IMO) was all about the tradeoff of high attack power and dodge for lower armor and direct survival ability. Armor stacking erases their main downside - to be fair, other classes can do the same thing, but if a strategy is considered "required" to compete, again, I say that is indication of a problem that needs to be looked at.

I don't necessarily think armor spells should break you out of hide, but clearly armor stacking needs tuning. You can stack 3+ buffs and literally sacrifice your other chars, then run in yourself and clean house. It works for any class - bucks have it naturally, but I've stood toe-to-toe with a buckler as a witch and literally ignored his attacks while both killing and healing with Jobu's. Armor stack does need tweaking, perhaps a limit on the number of buffs, or they all expire faster the more you have on, something.
Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
zuto4011a on Aug 12, 2015 wrote:
are you trying melee privy or staffy privy?
Melee works better against swashbucklers but I've had to switch to staffy for the moo robe since the scorpions help me deal better against those terror-cotta both are decent however I've managed to get to 271,yesterday x_x
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Aquilus99 on Aug 12, 2015 wrote:
I don't mind Swashbucklers receiving a new team buff for the removal of Black Fog from PVP or additional powers for other classes. Valor's Rampart looks interesting for Privateers (a Valor's Fortress group protection would be even better!), and I can't wait for it to come to our decks. The current Valor's Rampart weapon isn't worth the damage sacrifice a Dragon Axe of Doom of the Staff of Power might have.

Moreover, all the top tier team buffs last three turns, with Fog being the only exception and lasting a full five turns. The turn issue isn't as much as a problem as the double damage. Currently, the Hide mechanics work well, but simply doubling the damage of yourself and your companions is too overwhelming for an opposing player. The new companion buff allows more Blade Storms and Relentlesses to go around, strengthening a group power rush.

As a Privateer, whenever a Buck prepares a charge with Highland, I always Zeal to deflect the Relentlesses. However, Bucklers can either stall Zeal out or simply assassinate my captain or 2 companions with four 2x-3x damage cards.
I keep saying this over and over again - it doesn't last 5 rounds; it gets used, usually by the 4th round. Your Forts and Armor last the full round regardless.
The day Black Fog gets banned in PVP is the day I leave PVP forever! You don't realize that going down that road means that your powers will also be under attack and vulnerable to banning, if this should happen!
Use a companion with FS3 and protect the others. FS3 completely cancels the x2 damage ( which is what I believe all of you asked for ).
Lieutenant
Nov 28, 2014
138
Ratbeard on Aug 12, 2015 wrote:
I agree that Witch and Privy need help and I have a huge (really fun) list of stuff to bring to them.

As for Black Fog (broken record time) there is not a direct counter for it.

As in, "You do hide? Ok, I just do this simple thing and unhide you."

Countering the swashbuckler's specific, intended class design requires planning in advance, it requires sacrifice, it requires successful execution, and it sometimes requires the luck of the draw. If you're looking for "consistency" that would in any way obviate those requirements, you're on the wrong track.

Every class needs to be able to come back from 3-vs-4. Somebody has to lose the first guy. So figure out which guy you are willing to sacrifice to the swashbuckler, and then punish him for the trade.

There's a reason we use a chess piece to represent your companions.
The problem is, we don't get to choose who gets sacrificed, that would make this very easy, instead the swashbuckler will go for your top companion/ companions ruining your strategy
Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Ratbeard, please do something to help witches soon. Its just getting so frustrating.

I do a lot of matches, my record is 66-38. I play almost all bucklers, I would say at least 9/10 matches are against them. I am stuck at my current rank of hero, because even if I win a few, I lose a few after that. I lose matches in which I seem to be dominating. As a witch, it seems like I have to play perfectly to win. And even if it seems like I am going to win, I often end up losing, due to the slightest mistake. Other classes can afford to not play perfectly and still win.

One major reason I lose these types of matches is that witches have very limited fire power in terms of damage. Our spells dont compare to assassin strike, and of course, they dont trigger epics. If you could significantly increase spell attack power on single-target spells (not AOE) then I think it would give witches a better chance.
Lieutenant
May 09, 2013
157
stormy quentin ver... on Aug 18, 2015 wrote:
Ratbeard, please do something to help witches soon. Its just getting so frustrating.

I do a lot of matches, my record is 66-38. I play almost all bucklers, I would say at least 9/10 matches are against them. I am stuck at my current rank of hero, because even if I win a few, I lose a few after that. I lose matches in which I seem to be dominating. As a witch, it seems like I have to play perfectly to win. And even if it seems like I am going to win, I often end up losing, due to the slightest mistake. Other classes can afford to not play perfectly and still win.

One major reason I lose these types of matches is that witches have very limited fire power in terms of damage. Our spells dont compare to assassin strike, and of course, they dont trigger epics. If you could significantly increase spell attack power on single-target spells (not AOE) then I think it would give witches a better chance.
I didn't agree with this at first, but now I do think mojo echo and mojo rising should trigger off of spells. It's a needed buff for WDs.

The other thing that HAS to be addressed is purge magic. Right now bucklers can purge while hidden and let their companions wreak havoc. Then they buff afterwards. If you choose not to buff, assuming purge is coming, they kill you because you have no shields. I think, as do many other people, that purge magic should remove hidden.
Developer
stormy quentin ver... on Aug 18, 2015 wrote:
Ratbeard, please do something to help witches soon. Its just getting so frustrating.

I do a lot of matches, my record is 66-38. I play almost all bucklers, I would say at least 9/10 matches are against them. I am stuck at my current rank of hero, because even if I win a few, I lose a few after that. I lose matches in which I seem to be dominating. As a witch, it seems like I have to play perfectly to win. And even if it seems like I am going to win, I often end up losing, due to the slightest mistake. Other classes can afford to not play perfectly and still win.

One major reason I lose these types of matches is that witches have very limited fire power in terms of damage. Our spells dont compare to assassin strike, and of course, they dont trigger epics. If you could significantly increase spell attack power on single-target spells (not AOE) then I think it would give witches a better chance.
If you could significantly increase spell attack power on single-target spells (not AOE) then I think it would give witches a better chance.

The trigger epics you've already been asking for should help with weapon attacks (for starters). I'm also going to see about getting them to trigger again from spells-- maybe, provided it doesn't break anything else.

There are a couple of other places where "things that work for other classes don't work for witchdoctors," where we might be able to change things. These kinds of fixes are awesome because they don't require new art, new FX, just a little tweak here and there to existing functions.\

However...

Ratbeard, please do something to help witches soon. Its just getting so frustrating.

Scheduling QA time, bringing servers down, applying updates to a live service, and bringing servers online again... these are not minor requests.

Help is on the way... hang in there.
Developer
bluba4 on Aug 18, 2015 wrote:
I didn't agree with this at first, but now I do think mojo echo and mojo rising should trigger off of spells. It's a needed buff for WDs.

The other thing that HAS to be addressed is purge magic. Right now bucklers can purge while hidden and let their companions wreak havoc. Then they buff afterwards. If you choose not to buff, assuming purge is coming, they kill you because you have no shields. I think, as do many other people, that purge magic should remove hidden.
I think, as do many other people, that purge magic should remove hidden.

It's an outside possibility.
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Sunny Wolf on Aug 16, 2015 wrote:
Melee works better against swashbucklers but I've had to switch to staffy for the moo robe since the scorpions help me deal better against those terror-cotta both are decent however I've managed to get to 271,yesterday x_x
Ive tried staff but 4 of my 7 losses have been due to the fact that i couldn't deliver any finishing blows with a staff, when i switched over to melee i got to paragon easily
Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
zuto4011a on Aug 18, 2015 wrote:
Ive tried staff but 4 of my 7 losses have been due to the fact that i couldn't deliver any finishing blows with a staff, when i switched over to melee i got to paragon easily
I know what you mean however as I ranked up I noticed the moo robe completely ruined my anti swash set up I had so I had to find a way to buy myself a extra turn
Lieutenant
Nov 28, 2014
138
anecorbie on Aug 16, 2015 wrote:
I keep saying this over and over again - it doesn't last 5 rounds; it gets used, usually by the 4th round. Your Forts and Armor last the full round regardless.
The day Black Fog gets banned in PVP is the day I leave PVP forever! You don't realize that going down that road means that your powers will also be under attack and vulnerable to banning, if this should happen!
Use a companion with FS3 and protect the others. FS3 completely cancels the x2 damage ( which is what I believe all of you asked for ).
no I made a post on message boards, Never asked for this, what I did ask for though was making it maybe 3 rounds? just like our buffs where the strongest one lasts less, lets not forget your buff is much stronger then ours so dont try and say that we should have buffs that finish when we attack. Another counter that would be very nice would be repel borders 3 readied spell 3 and overwatch 3 activating hidden to unlock
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Masonpeev on Aug 21, 2015 wrote:
no I made a post on message boards, Never asked for this, what I did ask for though was making it maybe 3 rounds? just like our buffs where the strongest one lasts less, lets not forget your buff is much stronger then ours so dont try and say that we should have buffs that finish when we attack. Another counter that would be very nice would be repel borders 3 readied spell 3 and overwatch 3 activating hidden to unlock
I'm beginning to wonder if Black Fog is really the problem it is; most of the time I'm facing opponents who have no idea how to fight a PVP match. Let me give two examples of fighters who made the same mistake:
Example #1 Witchdoctor first move he uses Bonnie Anne's Scatter Shot to remove the obstacles in the center of the board. ( no one is within the area affected. ), He had no melee companion. he was easy to beat because he wasted his opportunities.
Example # 2 Musketeer first move - does the same thing as that WD, also has no melee companions
These two examples happened at the Warrior and Gladiator level in ranked PVP.
I imagine that their conversation with a friend went something like this:
Friend, "How did your match go?"
WD & MK: "I lost, she was a swashbuckler."
Friend, "Did she use fog?"
WD & MK : "Yeah."
Friend, "Fog is OP."
So if these encounters are happening to me at the mid levels in a Ranked PVP, I wonder what's going on at the higher levels.
I'm not saying that the ones posting here aren't competent, but perhaps aren't taking the opportunities to stop a buckler in their tracks
Example #3 Witchdoctor first move uses Widow's Touch. I knew at once that here was an opponent who understood buckler's strengths and was determined to stop it. He won because he used his powers and gear effectively.
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