The PvP weapons have become a problem. For some reason, Blood's Flames were banned, then a similar version was put on the PvP weapon. Moo's robe power was banned, then a similar version was put on a PvP weapon. The most ironic part is that the former powers were available to everyone whereas the new powers are available elusively to Champions.

The very reason the original powers were banned was because they were viewed as powerful and elitist - available to everyone, but not everyone wanted to work to farm. Now, not everyone CAN achieve Champion, so those powers are available to an even smaller crowd.

The treants are particularly a problem not only because they embody the Moo Manchu summon power, but also because they can go beyond it because they are affected by the Beastmaster Banner. I had one player report to me that against 3/5 classes, he didn't have to do a thing because the trees and Beastmaster Banner took care of everything for him. That is way beyond the capability of Moo's power and is now restricted to even fewer players.

What's worse? Not only are these restricted to Champions, but they also carry over from season to season. That means that when new players decide to jump in to PvP this season, the next season, or any season any number of years down the line, they're playing a bunch of former Champions with powers that they themselves cannot use and that totally overwhelm them. Champions make Champion again, get their next item, and repeat.

This is a perpetual problem. Does the community have any thoughts on the weapons they've experienced?

anecorbie on Jan 20, 2016 wrote:

You started with two false statements - Blood Flames were banned because they were not intended for PVP, but for PVE ( see the post: "Blood flames banned why?" for Ratbeard's reason ). Moo's Robe hasn't been banned, but has been adjusted for PVP competition. They still have their powers, just the number summoned depends on will.
The Summer's Flames aren't the same as Blood's Flames ( though still powerful.) There are methods to fight them.
I don't find Angry Orchard such a problem. If other players are overwhelmed by them, then they need to develop a strategy.
When a new season starts, a "noob" competitor would be wise to wait a few days before jumping in.
Champions are champions for a very good reason; they live for this competition - they practice and develop strategies, & they farm for the best equipment. It's not the weapon, it's the player behind the computer screen, that you must beat. They have earned those weapons and they have the right to use them. What else are they going to do with them? Hang them on their walls?
And at the moment there is nothing for these guys and gals to do but Ranked PVP.

While I agree with the original post, I also agree with this response which is a solid argument in itself. I think this "perpetual problem" mentioned is a lot more complicated and complex than the facts that have already been stated and acknowledged.

The first BIG thing I see when looking at this issue are the faulty mechanics. Yes, seasons have passed, and only a group of players yield what could be considered the "best weapons in game". What makes this a big deal is that powers like blood flames and Moo Robe do NOT come from WEAPONS. Right now, it is POSSIBLE to have 9 Terra Cotta Warriors on the field AT THE SAME TIME as 8 tree orchards. Did anyone else notice this? 2 GAME CHANGING powers simply sitting to be abused by any fall champion with the weapon and Moo robe. Simply put, WEAPON powers haven't been a big thing aside from rare drops and crown shop items, aka "pay to win", be it time or crowns.

On the same note of play to win, GEAR and COMPANIONS are easily the single most important things in pvp. Superior companions like Nausica, Goronado and crown shop "clones" are available to some, but not all. Gear on the other side IS available to all who have a max character (farming bosses they've fought), however lack the ideal gear they would need to do well in pvp. Aside from that, even if you have gear, others STILL have a huge advantage by owning Nausica/Goro etc.

To be honest, aside from "Royale boosters", ALL champions DO have most or all of these desirable pieces of gear and companions that aid them in each match.

Now back to the original point, this perpetual problem. I think an ideal solution could be to release new weapons and/or gear that would be available to PvP veterans, or some other smaller rank that is easier to attain.
I don't see this issue "going away", but I do see compromises that can happen. Making PvP Only gear/weapons for SCRIP, regardless of rank could be one (like in wizard101), but again, Champs can get them aswell.

Sticky issue for sure.

Wolf SkullRider on Jan 20, 2016 wrote:

While I agree with the original post, I also agree with this response which is a solid argument in itself. I think this "perpetual problem" mentioned is a lot more complicated and complex than the facts that have already been stated and acknowledged.

The first BIG thing I see when looking at this issue are the faulty mechanics. Yes, seasons have passed, and only a group of players yield what could be considered the "best weapons in game". What makes this a big deal is that powers like blood flames and Moo Robe do NOT come from WEAPONS. Right now, it is POSSIBLE to have 9 Terra Cotta Warriors on the field AT THE SAME TIME as 8 tree orchards. Did anyone else notice this? 2 GAME CHANGING powers simply sitting to be abused by any fall champion with the weapon and Moo robe. Simply put, WEAPON powers haven't been a big thing aside from rare drops and crown shop items, aka "pay to win", be it time or crowns.

On the same note of play to win, GEAR and COMPANIONS are easily the single most important things in pvp. Superior companions like Nausica, Goronado and crown shop "clones" are available to some, but not all. Gear on the other side IS available to all who have a max character (farming bosses they've fought), however lack the ideal gear they would need to do well in pvp. Aside from that, even if you have gear, others STILL have a huge advantage by owning Nausica/Goro etc.

To be honest, aside from "Royale boosters", ALL champions DO have most or all of these desirable pieces of gear and companions that aid them in each match.

Now back to the original point, this perpetual problem. I think an ideal solution could be to release new weapons and/or gear that would be available to PvP veterans, or some other smaller rank that is easier to attain.
I don't see this issue "going away", but I do see compromises that can happen. Making PvP Only gear/weapons for SCRIP, regardless of rank could be one (like in wizard101), but again, Champs can get them aswell.

Sticky issue for sure.

Making PVP weapons available to anyone with scrip ( or a lower rank ) will not solve the problem that you seem to perceive. It will only make it worse.
How many posts have we seen dealing with the need to make more ways to earn scrip or even to increase scrip drops / lower Black Market prices?
And how low are you willing to go in rank to make these weapons available? Paragon? Hero? Why not lower it to Brawler?
As Technomage pointed out, these weapons are really the only "good" reward for those competing in Ranked PVP ( besides the Badge showing the rank gained ).
Why compete if anyone with scrip can get them?
I hope I'm wrong, but posts like these seem more driven by jealousy or "sour grapes" than a true need to "balance" Ranked PVP.

anecorbie on Jan 20, 2016 wrote:

Making PVP weapons available to anyone with scrip ( or a lower rank ) will not solve the problem that you seem to perceive. It will only make it worse.
How many posts have we seen dealing with the need to make more ways to earn scrip or even to increase scrip drops / lower Black Market prices?
And how low are you willing to go in rank to make these weapons available? Paragon? Hero? Why not lower it to Brawler?
As Technomage pointed out, these weapons are really the only "good" reward for those competing in Ranked PVP ( besides the Badge showing the rank gained ).
Why compete if anyone with scrip can get them?
I hope I'm wrong, but posts like these seem more driven by jealousy or "sour grapes" than a true need to "balance" Ranked PVP.

I was simply analyzing the "problem" stated and brainstorming a possible solution. I don't know where the "sour grape" thing came from, I am a champion myself and simply wish for others to not have such a terrible time fighting these champion weapons, as the OP stated.

Also yes, I agree with tech's comment, but it doesn't really say much in terms of acknowledging the "perpetual problem" swordroll presented.

Yes, my ideas that were simply thrown out to brainstorm might not be what is best, but nevertheless I am at least trying to find a sliver some common ground, since it seems likely there will always be this "problem".

And again, I've read 2 very different viewpoints that BOTH have their validity. Not everything will be a "compromise", but it's more helpful to be a part of the solution than to "shut down" ideas presented.

Again, very complex "issue" presented, and I'm glad it finally surfaced.

I think it's very easy to direct "sour grapes" comments around and attempt to discredit posters because it means that we don't actually have to deal with the problem. I have seen no real evidence presented that this is not a problem or that there are effective counters. On the other hand, we have both what we see in the current arena as well as the word of two Champions backing the idea that this is a problem or has the potential to be. When a Champion is saying that the trees and banner are the only thing he has to do against 3 of 5 classes to win, I think that might be an issue.

Instead of pretending it doesn't exist, I'd like to address this problem. Nowhere have I said that I'd like the weapons banned from PvP (I believe they should stay). I don't recall even asking for a change. But this is, as multiple Champions have stated, an issue. I am looking only for a solution - what potential counters are there? Presently, I am hard-pressed to find some (even a critical AoE would have trouble taking these out assuming they stay in formation before your turn). I am wondering if the community has ideas. We'll start with potential counters before any changes are suggested.

Thank you to those who have shared insights on the power and how it might be effectively dealt with in the arena!

Swordroll on Jan 21, 2016 wrote:

I think it's very easy to direct "sour grapes" comments around and attempt to discredit posters because it means that we don't actually have to deal with the problem. I have seen no real evidence presented that this is not a problem or that there are effective counters. On the other hand, we have both what we see in the current arena as well as the word of two Champions backing the idea that this is a problem or has the potential to be. When a Champion is saying that the trees and banner are the only thing he has to do against 3 of 5 classes to win, I think that might be an issue.

Instead of pretending it doesn't exist, I'd like to address this problem. Nowhere have I said that I'd like the weapons banned from PvP (I believe they should stay). I don't recall even asking for a change. But this is, as multiple Champions have stated, an issue. I am looking only for a solution - what potential counters are there? Presently, I am hard-pressed to find some (even a critical AoE would have trouble taking these out assuming they stay in formation before your turn). I am wondering if the community has ideas. We'll start with potential counters before any changes are suggested.

Thank you to those who have shared insights on the power and how it might be effectively dealt with in the arena!

Continued

Angry orchard

: throw a defensive buff on you and let them hit you until you chain all of them dead pretty much just keep playing like they are not there this is a good idea when facing musketeers and sometimes even witches because your Vengenance strike and first strike are almost never used

: op dodge and gallant defense when charging you will riposte chain them or even just ignore them completely plus they will wonder off when you are hidden I would reccomend having a small defensive buff when charging though and other weak defensive buffs on your squishy companions of you see need

Overwatch 3 should render the trees useless anyway just give bounding Overwatch and all your companions will have Overwatch three when they charge even use traps of you wish

Bombs away! Then finish them!

I'm sure witches are familiar with old scratch save a jobus kiss or mojo hit to take them out with less of them they are not a problem really

I tried my best feel free to share your thoughts on this!

personally I'd say pvp battle "stalling" is also a very frustrating pvp problem. This is when both teams just stand there and keep clicking the done button waiting for the other player to make a move and ends up no one does anything for a long time. you will see this ALOT being done to you if u r a gunner in pvp but that certainly isn't the only time you will see "pvp stalling". i feel this is a big problem and should be addressed somehow. maybe introduce a penalty of some sort to a team who skips their turn more then a certain amount of times without making some significant movement/advancement/attacking or casting a spell.

TechnomagePvP on Jan 30, 2016 wrote:

Counters? Ok give me 5 minutes to wing it because this is WHAT I did as soon as they became a 'strategy' and I haven't seen a class that relies on these things which is what make it an issue.

Witchdoctor - Scorpions beat trees, flames, etc. Nothing else to be said. Idk why people use trees on Witch yet they're the ones with a load of losses compared to my Witch undefeated so far in Paragon while beating other Bucklers who bring the Trees

Swashbuckler - You're a Swashbuckler there isn't anything else to be said just use Tide Axe.... Really isn't a big deal... I'm not even kidding you counter everything you just need to play correctly and you shouldn't lose other then the RNG factor fights in Buckler vs Buckler, even then you get the weapon advantage since the trees are useless in that fight other then the enemy bringing banner but everyone knows the Banner can be removed while staying hidden so once again goodbye so called problematic trees, you have Alert so flames don't do much damage anyway even with a fort. Heck if you're that defensive as a Buckler and want more health use a fort AND a shield.

Privy - You win the summon war, mostly with scorps, why wouldn't you want to fight trees? Come on now... Like that's giving Privy the win if you rely on trees. Flames just remove maybe 1-2 scorpions, ok I can deal with 7 instead lol

Musketeer - You're complaining about trees when you have bombs, overwatch companions for days, etc. Ok logic there, seriously with all that removal it seems you may be just too busy typing a thread instead of using the right powers at the right time, flames are in the same situation as Witch+Privy they don't affect you cause normally you should be ranged!!!

Buccaneer - You have chains. Legit, don't even worry about it. Just wait out the flames and you have chains.

Sadly that's the easiest way to deal with everything. It's so brief but soooo true. TBC (1)

"Witchdoctor - Scorpions beat trees, flames, etc. Nothing else to be said. Idk why people use trees on Witch yet they're the ones with a load of losses compared to my Witch undefeated so far in Paragon while beating other Bucklers who bring the Trees"

As a witch, I prefer trees over scorpions due to the increased range with the wand, and also their hold the line is often very useful, along with their 3 guaranteed critical hits. They have also fared well against scorpions in my matches. I think both trees and witches can work for witches, but if you dont have trees then using scorpions is definitely a great counter.

Krigleblort on Feb 1, 2016 wrote:

Well personally I think that things like the MOO robe should now be allowed back into PVP / and that other items there were modified should be put back to their original function. If only the so called champions have special items they will most likely be the ones to keep winning - mostly due to a lot of others not even bothering now.

Moo Robes were not banned, but modified, it was the Imperial Crown and the Imperial Boots of Moo Manchu which were banned as well as Captain Blood's Jacket.
The Crown and Boots were banned because their use caused a problem in play order; they may eventually be restored to Ranked PVP
Blood's Jacket ( Blood Flames ) were never intended for PVP and are unlikely to be un-banned.
How do you know this will help at all since many champions have these articles of gear? It will only make things worse
Players have been giving examples on how to fight these powers. Read and develop a strategy, then there will be NO reason to give up.

stormy quentin ver... on Feb 1, 2016 wrote:

"Witchdoctor - Scorpions beat trees, flames, etc. Nothing else to be said. Idk why people use trees on Witch yet they're the ones with a load of losses compared to my Witch undefeated so far in Paragon while beating other Bucklers who bring the Trees"

As a witch, I prefer trees over scorpions due to the increased range with the wand, and also their hold the line is often very useful, along with their 3 guaranteed critical hits. They have also fared well against scorpions in my matches. I think both trees and witches can work for witches, but if you dont have trees then using scorpions is definitely a great counter.

Personal experiences and niche's. Some people prefer trees, some people prefer scorpions, some people prefer trees, other prefer Tide Axe as a buckler, etc. Mess around and find what works with your gear set, companions and play style while also making sure it covers all grounds and has the best win rate possible! :P I just was saying Scorps over tree because if you're playing correctly with them you should always be able to beat trees, I mean it's difficult for the Tree's to hit the Scorps naturally so if RnG is minimal the Scorps should 'technically' be better.which is why I say the Tree's shouldn't be looked at as a problem since there is a FtP counter for everyone class besides Buck's who well needed something to stand in there way for once lol XD