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RB- ?'s about combo, Shooty/Slashy weapons

AuthorMessage
Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
Ok, I know that I am supposed to be studying right now but I had to take a moment to ask good ol' Ratbeard a couple of 'last' questions, before my schedule picks up it's intensity level.

Before breaking away, I wanted to at least enjoy some of the new toys that the KI dev. team afforded us via the updates. I wanted new pets w/ some (if not all) of the new Grants added to the mix. And wanted to see what kind of fun I could have as a new combo, Shooty/Slashy Buck & w/ new talents from those new pets/trainers.

I purchased the Helios Set-- Shooty/Slashy weapon from CS-- reset Valkoor & trained Relentless & Burst Fire. Along with those I decided to add Cheap Shot & Overwatch, just because I felt like getting creative. I'm working on a pet that will possess these Grants: Relentless, Burst Fire & First Strike. My hope was to produce a maxed combo Buck, using the Shooty/Slashy weapon, possessing Relentless 2 (trained & from pet), Burst Fire 3 (trained, Quiver & from pet), Overwatch 2 (trained & Santa Rana's Hat), First Strike (from pet) & Cheap Shot. I thought that it would be fun to possibly see 15+ attacks in 1 round (full turn by both sides)-- I'm aware that it may not be an ideal set up. It only took me a few hatches w/in my own pet populace to produce some G-Relentless/G-Burst Fire pets, so I was set w/ Rel 2, BF 2, OW & Cheap Shot, on top of class talents/ranks.

What I soon found out is that Overwatch never kicked in for me, even though the right conditions were met. I tested for 15-18 battles & never once saw OW activate when it otherwise should have. Actually the same could be said for Cheap Shot but I was paying closer attention to OW. I had the Helios Set equipped, which only has a range of 1, meaning attacks/talents activate against adjacent enemies. So, I'm not sure if that negates the ability to use Overwatch, since it's a ranged Epic. However w/ the Helios Set, I can use ranged AoE's & powers. With Sniper Shot, I could attack an enemy clear across the board, but Overwatch wouldn't activate on an approaching enemy, 2 tiles away.

So, my questions for you, RB, are as follows..
1] Does the Helios Set qualify as a Shooty weapon, in regards to Overwatch?
2] Is Overwatch not meant to work w/ Shooty/Slashy weapons (range 1)?
3] Should it work?...if that same weapon can qualify the use of ranged powers, like Sniper Shot, & Shooty AoE's?
4] If it shouldn't work, should there be a warning on the Overwatch Card that states, excludes combo Shooty/Slashy weapons?
5] Does, or should, Cheap Shot work w/ a Shooty/Slashy weapon, such as Helios Set?
6] Should Burst Fire attacks from a Shooty/Slashy, only use shooty animations? Often the BF's would appear as a melee only animation.

Side Note-- When using Sniper Shot w/ a Shooty/Slashy weapon, the animation & damage #'s center over the pirate. Is this the way it was intended or just a 'side effect' of that weapon having 'adjacent range' only- even despite being able to use Sniper Shot?

Thank you for any info!
Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
398
I've always assumed Overwatch doesnt trigger because of the range 1 (I tested it long ago way before these updates) but you've asked good questions and I'm curious to see the answers :)
Petty Officer
Jun 22, 2014
83
Overwatch is meant for shooty weapons that have more than a one tile range (so shooty and shooty/staffy weapons would get overwatch). Since shooty/slashy weapons can only do the basic attack on adjacent enemies, overwatch will never kick in. I hope this information helps Valkoor.
Developer
ValkoorTheVictorio... on Sep 8, 2015 wrote:
Ok, I know that I am supposed to be studying right now but I had to take a moment to ask good ol' Ratbeard a couple of 'last' questions, before my schedule picks up it's intensity level.

Before breaking away, I wanted to at least enjoy some of the new toys that the KI dev. team afforded us via the updates. I wanted new pets w/ some (if not all) of the new Grants added to the mix. And wanted to see what kind of fun I could have as a new combo, Shooty/Slashy Buck & w/ new talents from those new pets/trainers.

I purchased the Helios Set-- Shooty/Slashy weapon from CS-- reset Valkoor & trained Relentless & Burst Fire. Along with those I decided to add Cheap Shot & Overwatch, just because I felt like getting creative. I'm working on a pet that will possess these Grants: Relentless, Burst Fire & First Strike. My hope was to produce a maxed combo Buck, using the Shooty/Slashy weapon, possessing Relentless 2 (trained & from pet), Burst Fire 3 (trained, Quiver & from pet), Overwatch 2 (trained & Santa Rana's Hat), First Strike (from pet) & Cheap Shot. I thought that it would be fun to possibly see 15+ attacks in 1 round (full turn by both sides)-- I'm aware that it may not be an ideal set up. It only took me a few hatches w/in my own pet populace to produce some G-Relentless/G-Burst Fire pets, so I was set w/ Rel 2, BF 2, OW & Cheap Shot, on top of class talents/ranks.

What I soon found out is that Overwatch never kicked in for me, even though the right conditions were met. I tested for 15-18 battles & never once saw OW activate when it otherwise should have. Actually the same could be said for Cheap Shot but I was paying closer attention to OW. I had the Helios Set equipped, which only has a range of 1, meaning attacks/talents activate against adjacent enemies. So, I'm not sure if that negates the ability to use Overwatch, since it's a ranged Epic. However w/ the Helios Set, I can use ranged AoE's & powers. With Sniper Shot, I could attack an enemy clear across the board, but Overwatch wouldn't activate on an approaching enemy, 2 tiles away.

So, my questions for you, RB, are as follows..
1] Does the Helios Set qualify as a Shooty weapon, in regards to Overwatch?
2] Is Overwatch not meant to work w/ Shooty/Slashy weapons (range 1)?
3] Should it work?...if that same weapon can qualify the use of ranged powers, like Sniper Shot, & Shooty AoE's?
4] If it shouldn't work, should there be a warning on the Overwatch Card that states, excludes combo Shooty/Slashy weapons?
5] Does, or should, Cheap Shot work w/ a Shooty/Slashy weapon, such as Helios Set?
6] Should Burst Fire attacks from a Shooty/Slashy, only use shooty animations? Often the BF's would appear as a melee only animation.

Side Note-- When using Sniper Shot w/ a Shooty/Slashy weapon, the animation & damage #'s center over the pirate. Is this the way it was intended or just a 'side effect' of that weapon having 'adjacent range' only- even despite being able to use Sniper Shot?

Thank you for any info!
1] Does the Helios Set qualify as a Shooty weapon, in regards to Overwatch?
2] Is Overwatch not meant to work w/ Shooty/Slashy weapons?
3] Should it work?...if that same weapon can qualify the use of ranged powers like Sniper Shot?

Yes and no. Overwatch is trying to work, but because it's eyeballing the square at range 2, when Overwatch says "Shoot!" the pistol says, "My range is 1!"

There's a big difference between active powers (like sniper shot) and reactive powers (like a basic attack).

If, for example, Overwatch could trigger and use your Sniper Shot power instead of your basic attack, it would work just fine. (But it doesn't, it can't, and it won't-- before you ask.)

That combo weapon is a melee weapon. There are some things it can emulate like a ranged weapon, but it is not a ranged weapon.

4] If it shouldn't work, should there be a warning on the Overwatch Card that states, excludes combo Shooty/Slashy weapons?

Oh, there's all sorts of things that should go on a card-- if only there were space.

5] Does, or should, Cheap Shot work w/ a Shooty/Slashy weapon, such as Helios Set?

It certainly should. It is a melee weapon. Running through the logic in my head, it should work.

6] Should Burst Fire attacks from a Shooty/Slashy, only use shooty animations? Often the BF's would appear as a melee only animation.

When a talent triggers, it triggers your basic attack. The "basic attack" animation on the combo weapon includes both melee and ranged animations.

Combo weapons are a nice-- but unexpected, from the tech standpoint-- extension to the game. They aren't as smoothly integrated as they perhaps could be but they work well enough to accept some drawbacks.

7] When using Sniper Shot w/ a Shooty/Slashy weapon, the animation & damage #'s center over the pirate.

That sounds like a bug, but if it's doing what I think it's doing, then that same bug should appear regardless of what power kicks off that particular animation. Ever see it with anything besides Sniper Shot?
Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
Ratbeard on Sep 9, 2015 wrote:
1] Does the Helios Set qualify as a Shooty weapon, in regards to Overwatch?
2] Is Overwatch not meant to work w/ Shooty/Slashy weapons?
3] Should it work?...if that same weapon can qualify the use of ranged powers like Sniper Shot?

Yes and no. Overwatch is trying to work, but because it's eyeballing the square at range 2, when Overwatch says "Shoot!" the pistol says, "My range is 1!"

There's a big difference between active powers (like sniper shot) and reactive powers (like a basic attack).

If, for example, Overwatch could trigger and use your Sniper Shot power instead of your basic attack, it would work just fine. (But it doesn't, it can't, and it won't-- before you ask.)

That combo weapon is a melee weapon. There are some things it can emulate like a ranged weapon, but it is not a ranged weapon.

4] If it shouldn't work, should there be a warning on the Overwatch Card that states, excludes combo Shooty/Slashy weapons?

Oh, there's all sorts of things that should go on a card-- if only there were space.

5] Does, or should, Cheap Shot work w/ a Shooty/Slashy weapon, such as Helios Set?

It certainly should. It is a melee weapon. Running through the logic in my head, it should work.

6] Should Burst Fire attacks from a Shooty/Slashy, only use shooty animations? Often the BF's would appear as a melee only animation.

When a talent triggers, it triggers your basic attack. The "basic attack" animation on the combo weapon includes both melee and ranged animations.

Combo weapons are a nice-- but unexpected, from the tech standpoint-- extension to the game. They aren't as smoothly integrated as they perhaps could be but they work well enough to accept some drawbacks.

7] When using Sniper Shot w/ a Shooty/Slashy weapon, the animation & damage #'s center over the pirate.

That sounds like a bug, but if it's doing what I think it's doing, then that same bug should appear regardless of what power kicks off that particular animation. Ever see it with anything besides Sniper Shot?
Yes and no. Overwatch is trying to work, but because it's eyeballing the square at range 2, when Overwatch says "Shoot!" the pistol says, "My range is 1!"

I thought that was the case. It makes sense that OW wouldn't kick in, since my basic attacks, crits, powers & reactive/responsive talents only worked against adj. enemies, a la melee style. I think seeing Sniper Shot work just threw me off a bit. Being that I couldn't activate my 'ranged' attacks/talents (besides Shooty AoE's), I didn't think SS would even work...w/ Sh/Sl being considered, as you stated, & 'acting' as a melee weapon.

Oh, there's all sorts of things that should go on a card-- if only there were space.

Yeah, that was wishful thinking on my part. Mostly because upon training OW, it would have been nice to know that it wouldn't 'work' w/ the Helios Set (or any Sh/Sl). I see the issue w/ including all info/warnings on those little, bitty cards. I don't have a lot of experience as a Musk or w/ Sh/Sl, so I went in a bit blind. But I surely wouldn't have trained OW, knowing that it wouldn't work w/ that set up. Maybe there could just be a warning at the trainer?- since it could lead to having to reset again & costing 3k Crowns. But I also should have been smart & gotten info first, before foolishly thinking I had it all figured out. But if a warning at the trainer saves someone else from having to reset via Crowns, I think it would be worth it.

Running through the logic in my head, it should work.

Cheap Shot I'm not 100% sure of. I never once saw it activate, but it could be a case of conditions not being met or me just not paying attention. When I reset because of OW, I did away w/ it, or else I'd certainly test it out.

When a talent triggers, it triggers your basic attack....

All of that makes sense to me!

Ever see it with anything besides Sniper Shot?

I haven't really used other ranged powers/AoE's since resetting. But I'll investigate & report back.

I appreciate the reply & the info!
Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
That sounds like a bug..Ever see it with anything besides Sniper Shot?.

Ok, I did some investigating & it may not be a bug, but perhaps just a product of Sniper Shot being a Super Hit, & since a Shooty/Slashy weapon is considered melee, the Super hit animation for that type of weapon is a basic melee, Critical Hit animation...at least I think? Same thing happened when I equipped a ranged, Super & used the power. The screen centered on my pirate, as it does during normal melee Shooty/Slashy Crit. Hits. So the #'s weren't actually centered over my pirate, they were the typical white, Crit. Hit numbers that display under/on my pirate. And with the animation being centered on my pirate-- for the Sniper Shot & Super Hit-- the #'s were too, instead of being over the enemy. The animation for the enemy being hit still kicked in, but you could barely see it, due to the zoomed in camera, & the #'s just don't appear over the enemy as the animation rolls. Couldn't check Mega or Epic, ranged power cards-- don't have any of those.

I did equip & test the following powers, just in case: Blunderbuss Shot, Uncanny Shot, Hurricane Round, Storm Round, Inferno Round & they all had 'normal' results, damage # displays & animations as well. I didn't get any Crits on those, so not sure if any problems would arise from those powers going critical. I'm guessing no, since they are their 'own power' & use a unique animation. I also tested these: Mournsong, Big Guns, Soulreaver, Mojo Storm & Mutineer's Grasp. Figured they wouldn't be necessary, since they aren't Shooty Powers, but I enjoy research so I thought, 'they're ranged, why not?'

Also, I learned something today, something I should have been aware of ages ago. Basic attack #'s &Talent based damage #'s display as red. Power based damage #'s display as Yellow & all Critical Hit damage #'s display as White. I was always aware of the various colors, just never took time to reveal the rainbow! Who knew? Well, probably most players out there.
Lieutenant
Feb 02, 2013
119
ValkoorTheVictorio... on Sep 9, 2015 wrote:
That sounds like a bug..Ever see it with anything besides Sniper Shot?.

Ok, I did some investigating & it may not be a bug, but perhaps just a product of Sniper Shot being a Super Hit, & since a Shooty/Slashy weapon is considered melee, the Super hit animation for that type of weapon is a basic melee, Critical Hit animation...at least I think? Same thing happened when I equipped a ranged, Super & used the power. The screen centered on my pirate, as it does during normal melee Shooty/Slashy Crit. Hits. So the #'s weren't actually centered over my pirate, they were the typical white, Crit. Hit numbers that display under/on my pirate. And with the animation being centered on my pirate-- for the Sniper Shot & Super Hit-- the #'s were too, instead of being over the enemy. The animation for the enemy being hit still kicked in, but you could barely see it, due to the zoomed in camera, & the #'s just don't appear over the enemy as the animation rolls. Couldn't check Mega or Epic, ranged power cards-- don't have any of those.

I did equip & test the following powers, just in case: Blunderbuss Shot, Uncanny Shot, Hurricane Round, Storm Round, Inferno Round & they all had 'normal' results, damage # displays & animations as well. I didn't get any Crits on those, so not sure if any problems would arise from those powers going critical. I'm guessing no, since they are their 'own power' & use a unique animation. I also tested these: Mournsong, Big Guns, Soulreaver, Mojo Storm & Mutineer's Grasp. Figured they wouldn't be necessary, since they aren't Shooty Powers, but I enjoy research so I thought, 'they're ranged, why not?'

Also, I learned something today, something I should have been aware of ages ago. Basic attack #'s &Talent based damage #'s display as red. Power based damage #'s display as Yellow & all Critical Hit damage #'s display as White. I was always aware of the various colors, just never took time to reveal the rainbow! Who knew? Well, probably most players out there.
I would say it is sort of a bug, because the same can be said with Shooty/ staffy weapons(their critical animation is centered on the character), however for melee/shooty it makes sense for this to happen(because critical melee attacks would be the same for a shooty critical attack) The basic/talent attacks of a shooty/staffy weapon are fine and have different animations that work normally, and so does the casting of both ranged and magical attacks alike(before you ask, yes I have a Work-In-Progress that is utilizing this combo, it can/will be a thing), however the critical animation for this weapon type is centered on the character, rather than the character and the enemy(like the shooty and magic criticals)

The significant difference is that staffy, musketeer, and melee critical are all different, with only melee and hybrid weapons having the darker background when a critical occurs. Musket powers should work fine regardless of criticals because the animation is not different if a critical occurs anyhow.

On a side note, Valkoor I always believed that red was physical damage(which is blocked by armor), yellow was for magic/shooty(with a few exceptions, such as an armor piercing crossbows) attacks(blocked by resistance), and White is obviously for criticals. I would not say it is talent based because if you Mojo Echo, the damage will still be displayed in yellow, so it can't be talent/basic attack based because then combos from ranged companions would all be physical(which cannot be the case for all of them). Just making sure we get to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow
Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
398
Umm yeah I think red is physical and yellow is magical.

About hybrid weapon, and in particular sniper shot... it does two hits right? Have you noticed sometimes the second hit does 0 damage? I thought maybe it was a bug...

And about Overwatch with slashy/shooty weapon... what if one used eagle eye? Could it trigger?
Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
Stormy Sam Templet... on Sep 10, 2015 wrote:
I would say it is sort of a bug, because the same can be said with Shooty/ staffy weapons(their critical animation is centered on the character), however for melee/shooty it makes sense for this to happen(because critical melee attacks would be the same for a shooty critical attack) The basic/talent attacks of a shooty/staffy weapon are fine and have different animations that work normally, and so does the casting of both ranged and magical attacks alike(before you ask, yes I have a Work-In-Progress that is utilizing this combo, it can/will be a thing), however the critical animation for this weapon type is centered on the character, rather than the character and the enemy(like the shooty and magic criticals)

The significant difference is that staffy, musketeer, and melee critical are all different, with only melee and hybrid weapons having the darker background when a critical occurs. Musket powers should work fine regardless of criticals because the animation is not different if a critical occurs anyhow.

On a side note, Valkoor I always believed that red was physical damage(which is blocked by armor), yellow was for magic/shooty(with a few exceptions, such as an armor piercing crossbows) attacks(blocked by resistance), and White is obviously for criticals. I would not say it is talent based because if you Mojo Echo, the damage will still be displayed in yellow, so it can't be talent/basic attack based because then combos from ranged companions would all be physical(which cannot be the case for all of them). Just making sure we get to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow
Yeah, even if it's not a bug, it is a bit buggy. But it appears for the shooty/melee side of it, that it is buggy by unintentional design or as a unintended side effect. It's a bit funny seeing my Buck perform a spinning, melee animation/attack, followed by a shot at an enemy clear across the board...& not really being able to see the enemy 'react'. I kind of like it-- gives me a lil' bit of a chuckle...just a lil' bit.

Furthermore, those Sniper Shots are pretty sweet for a melee or melee/shooty fighter equipped w/ Rel. 2, Burst 2, B. Storm 3 & Veng. 3-- especially if you don't have access or haven't purchased or received many Super Critical Hit cards via gear. I enjoy using the Sniper Shot as a 'melee' power, letting the enemy surround me & then let the Sniper Shot & ensuing epic chain of Epic attacks unfold. It's a great way to unleash up to 12 attacks, & a nice substitute if a Super Card doesn't show up in your battle deck. The Shooty/Slashy setup works great with Reckless Frenzy, too!

And by Sam, you're absolutely right & thank you for sharing that 'rainbow' of info & for correcting me. You know, the great thing about sharing something that ends up being wrong or not exactly right, is that you are almost always guaranteed to learn something new. The confusion seems to stem from the fact that upon testing the Shooty ranged powers/talents, I had pretty much all Shooty Powers equipped. And since they were all magical damage based (save for Sniper Shot, which was physical), I was seeing all yellow #'s-- but because of the magical damage part, not the fact that I was using powers. Also, all of the red #'s were based on the fact that all of my Buck's attacking talents, of course, inflict physical damage. So, the red #'s weren't at all because they were basic attacks and/or talents, it was simply because all of those attacks were physical, as you stated.

So, again I thank you for the insightful info. I do like a good correction that leads to me learning!
Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
Your not allowed to play until you finish your homework........

Virtuous Dante Ramsey
Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
Silver Angel on Sep 10, 2015 wrote:
Umm yeah I think red is physical and yellow is magical.

About hybrid weapon, and in particular sniper shot... it does two hits right? Have you noticed sometimes the second hit does 0 damage? I thought maybe it was a bug...

And about Overwatch with slashy/shooty weapon... what if one used eagle eye? Could it trigger?
Hmmm....that's a good question.

I don't have a lot of experience with Eagle Eyes, though I do have rank 2 on a few pets-- just haven't equipped them and tested EE's out, since as a buck who uses mostly other charging Buck companions, my crew can traverse nearly the entire board. But now that I'm trying out the whole Shooty/Slashy version of a Buck, I'd be curious to know if EE's could cause/influence Overwatch to trigger. Seems like it possibly could because once EE is active, it would seem that-- and using RB's vernacular here-- when Overwatch is 'eyeballing the square at range 2, when Overwatch says "Shoot!" the pistol...<could possibly now>...say, "My range is <more than> 1!, <"so I shall indeed shoot!">

As far as the Sniper Shot question, I haven't really noticed the second hit zeroing out. I usually see the 2 sets of numbers display rather quickly...and I'm fairly certain that both sets of numbers have always been actual sets of numbers. But I am fairly new to using Sniper Shot, so I'll make sure to keep a watchful eye out. I do so like using it as an 'extra melee' power though, in order to trigger a long chain of epics. It gives me a lot more 'play' in regards to which pieces of gear I use for Super Crit. Hit powers. Plus all of the Sniper Shots that I possess on my Buck, either come with Weapon Mastery, Mojo Mastery, Increase to Base Strength and/or an extra healing power-- which all can be useful and of which none of my 'melee Super cards' possess. So, using Sniper Shot as an extra melee Super, for chaining talents onto multiple enemies, really helps me get the most out of my gear and which powers I do have available.

Hopefully someone has some insight on the Eagle Eyes/Overwatch question and I'll see if I witness anything else peculiar with Sniper Shot. Oh...and Dante, all homeworkand studying has been successfully completed....and then some-- don't want to go to bed without any supper, now do I!
First Mate
Sep 13, 2010
402
Silver Angel on Sep 10, 2015 wrote:
Umm yeah I think red is physical and yellow is magical.

About hybrid weapon, and in particular sniper shot... it does two hits right? Have you noticed sometimes the second hit does 0 damage? I thought maybe it was a bug...

And about Overwatch with slashy/shooty weapon... what if one used eagle eye? Could it trigger?
Eagle eyes will not provide any extra range, it won't put the buff on you. That's still a melee weapon.
Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
398
AndrewDeathblade11... on Sep 15, 2015 wrote:
Eagle eyes will not provide any extra range, it won't put the buff on you. That's still a melee weapon.
Thanks for clarifying, was worth asking :)
Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
AndrewDeathblade11... on Sep 15, 2015 wrote:
Eagle eyes will not provide any extra range, it won't put the buff on you. That's still a melee weapon.
I am about 75% sure you are 50% wrong on that. The buff does go on the player i am pretty sure. That range buff can be used (I think) by privateers and whatnot using melee weapons that extend the range of their heals. I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure about that.