bluba4 on Jul 25, 2015 wrote:

I think I've mentioned this before, but I think the answer to hidden is making hold the line 3 stop hidden players.

I know it sounds kind of weak for a counter, but it does two things:

1) black fog isn't changed. Swashbucklers can still use their ace in the deck without it being nerfed at all.
2) This encourages strategic play with an ability that not many players opt to get on their companions. By placing a valor's fortress on a hold the line 3 companion, then placing that companion in front of your other troops, you can prevent the swashbuckler death ball from getting to your more vulnerable companions.

Also, with more epics coming out for companions, it won't cost as much to spend three epic talents on hold the line.

What do you think?

It is an interesting Idea, but i'd like this side by side WITH black fog being made weaker, this would essentially restore the defensive classes and even out the playing field, but this alone would not but enough because they can just run around the hold 3 companion, after all, they do have the most "range" of any class

TechnomagePvP on Jul 24, 2015 wrote:

OOOH another one, lets counter these points because they're all wrong! :)

-Learn to play with your class. Each have their pros and cons, each are good and bad in some aspects of fighting.
First off have you not seen whose replying to this? Not just normal central players or randoms. We've played our class for awhile now and have been known as 'top class' players. Like Zuto, best 1v1 Privy IMO (Thou you've gotten rusty buddy) Alex over there prob one of if not the best Muskets IG and for sure a very highly experienced player when it comes to general class game play.

Even Midnight Pirate AKA Harry which people say is the best Buckler IG which I agree with is on our side, so it's not the problem we don't know how to play our class, the problem is we've played our class for so long and for a year not to have a counter to it yet is ridiculous..

-Swashbuckler can't do much against ranged units when not hidden, specially in PvP.
It was said so many times here already, really no point in going over it again.
And when you play in group with Swashbuckler i bet that hidden comes so good and handy.
Swashbucklers? Can't do anything against ranged? I think not.... Ranged has the worst time because no obstacles to create barriers which can't be bypass anymore so you have to deal with fog and protect on such a small open board. You can't rely on AoE's while they're hidden to kill.... Not happening. Also only 1v1 is available so we can't put group fights into this atm...

-Even melee units with high armor have advantage, regardles on Buckler strong attacks. Buck can hit hard too.
Shall we lower Buck's armor then? Or increase damage Buck gets when doing frenzy??!
How's that souds? Not so good, eh Buccaneers?!

The original problem is Armor was useless before, so why lower it again? Bucks have no AoE's, we have less amount of defense for our companions and low accuracy, Bucklers were made to keep Buck in check but are just unbeatable as a buck (Continued in next post)

yes i have gotten rusty, i see no point in practicing with a class that requires only the most op stuff to stay competitive

If you think Fog should be weaker / let us be sure that the prime skill of all the other classes is also made weaker

FOG in PvP is nothing / the player is not really hidden / you can still bomb them / still wee where they are moving / and it has a time limit on how many rounds / so WORK around it

Thomas Sunhammer on Jul 26, 2015 wrote:

In réponse to the bucklers who said they still lost to people with effective strategies I would like to say: That is exactly our point. Buckler class has become a no brainer class. Meaning you don't NEED strategy to win with it. Its the same issue wizard101 is having because of their over high critical. Why think when you can just spam gargantuan boosted hits and critical every time? Now if anyone hopes to defeat a buckler they have to really think and strategize in order to do so.

But what if you put a strategist behind the wheels of a Buckler pirate on top of their advantages. Lol well say goodnight there is no hope for you now.

Exactly, for bucklers its just one or 2 "strategies" that can make them win, and when u have a pro buckler, thats amazing gear with an amazing mind with amazing powers

01Shadowblade on Jul 27, 2015 wrote:

If you think Fog should be weaker / let us be sure that the prime skill of all the other classes is also made weaker

FOG in PvP is nothing / the player is not really hidden / you can still bomb them / still wee where they are moving / and it has a time limit on how many rounds / so WORK around it

I am a buccaneer so no that doesn't work and even if i was a musketeer putting bombs around them, what good is that when they have -50% to traps already then put up a valor's fortress, not to mention they can hide through overwatch and burst fire chains and can completely kill off a captain within the first 3 rounds

Ratbeard on Jul 27, 2015 wrote:

Well from facing 20 swashbucklers out of 30 ranked pvp matches which should already send a message they all use black fog within the first 2 turns

No, it really doesn't send any message at all for any class to use the best version they have of the best power they have. That is not an "alarm bells" situation.

Swashbucklers have a very limited set of powers and those powers are limited to a very specific kind of play.

Swashbucklers hide, they poison, and they backstab-- with just a couple of other things thrown in for variety.

It really should not come as a surprise to see swashbucklers, both the inexperienced and the experienced alike, playing to their obvious strengths.

What should come as a surprise (or not to those of us who have complained about it for months) is how one sided this single power makes ranked matches compared to other classes' signature powers.

I went against a Musket the other day who surrounded himself with bombs and traps when I used Black Fog. I simply just used a fort on myself and walked through all this bombs like nothing with the alert talent + fog. Tempest only delays me so much. This person did everything right. Moved to the corner to protect his pirate. Placed bombs and traps all around him to damage and stop me from charging. My main class is Musketeer and even I was impressed at how well he played it out. Yet it didn't matter. My companions and I walked through the bombs like nothing, and it didn't matter that we took 1k health in damage, because with that single fog power myself and my 3 companions killed his Pepe and Chantal in one turn and left his Bonnie at orange health. The next turn with it being a 2v4, he could only manage to kill one companion. I just went hidden again in walk in darkness and finished it pretty easily from there.

This is against the class with the best tools in the game to try and fight a Swashbuckler. Yet it didn't make a difference because of one single power.

Imagine how worse it is vs Buccaneers, Privateers and Witchdoctors with no bombs to prevent me from approaching? I have only lost ONE duel out of dozens on my Swashbuckler and is always the same thing, Fog > kill 2+ companions, win the 2v4 easily.

Masonpeev's point does send a message. With the way Black Fog is now, there is no reason to play anything but Swashbuckler in ranked PvP. If two thirds of the players playing ranked are Swashbuckler, it is for a reason, there is a balance problem. No other class can compete against the power of Black Fog. The best way to fight it is to bring your own Black Fog. And even then, ask a Swashbuckler what happens if you use your fog before your opponent uses his lol

Masonpeev on Jul 26, 2015 wrote:

Well from facing 20 swashbucklers out of 30 ranked pvp matches which should already send a message they all use black fog within the first 2 turns

What do you expect? Am I supposed to just stand there and let you bomb, sniper, mojo storm, gunnery, big guns me and reduce my health ( already low ) before I cross the board? Let you destroy my companions without lifting a finger?
It's our only team buff and it goes away ( unlike others ) when used. Ratbeard says we're playing to our strengths - our strengths are stealth, speed & dodge.

Ratbeard on Jul 27, 2015 wrote:

Well from facing 20 swashbucklers out of 30 ranked pvp matches which should already send a message they all use black fog within the first 2 turns

No, it really doesn't send any message at all for any class to use the best version they have of the best power they have. That is not an "alarm bells" situation.

Swashbucklers have a very limited set of powers and those powers are limited to a very specific kind of play.

Swashbucklers hide, they poison, and they backstab-- with just a couple of other things thrown in for variety.

It really should not come as a surprise to see swashbucklers, both the inexperienced and the experienced alike, playing to their obvious strengths.

I understand that, was trying to emphasize on the 20 swashbucklers out of 30 matches thing more, its just that almost every other person you face in ranked pvp is a swashbucker, why? its just like you said, they have one strategy, this one strategy doesn't have a consistent counter for most other classes

anecorbie on Jul 27, 2015 wrote:

What do you expect? Am I supposed to just stand there and let you bomb, sniper, mojo storm, gunnery, big guns me and reduce my health ( already low ) before I cross the board? Let you destroy my companions without lifting a finger?
It's our only team buff and it goes away ( unlike others ) when used. Ratbeard says we're playing to our strengths - our strengths are stealth, speed & dodge.

Well why is it that your strengths are greater then our strengths then? if we all had equal strengths this post would not be here, of course every class uses their strengths thats a no brainer and btw your team buff being used, dont forget this is basically 100% immunity to all melee classes and melee companions along with the damage boost, not to mention hiding from overwatch and readied spell for 5 rounds, and whats buccaneers strength? using buffs for a chance at a critical which won't matter because you'll just hide the next round and heal up, armor? what good is armor when you have poisons, shields? we can't stack them anymore, and I can go on about other classes as well too but i won't

Koi the Fish on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:

I have said this before and I will say it again. I think Black fog should just be the double damage, it should not be hidden targets, it could also be flip-flopped to be hidden but not double damaged. I feel that is fair I do have a buckler and it is that easy buff buff buff hit and win.

i am not sure, cause the only thing swashbucklers are so good cause fog when fog is used without any enemies swashbucklers are doomed. like if any class is over powered it will be actually be a buccaneer cause that reckless frenzy. and privateers has that fort. and musketeers has that torpedoes, and traps. witch with that mojo storm.

Thomas Sunhammer on Jul 28, 2015 wrote:

Hmm...well I do still think that the swashbuckler school has become a no brainer school. You can't deny that. But as many have pointed out...they don't really have a choice.

Mostly I am just happy they got rid of the doubloons. Fighting a buckler who could spam coins from the shadow WHILE not getting hit was too much.

I think the REAL issue isn't the unfairness of fog and similarly not that we need a counter for it and other cloaking. Its that every one else who relied heavily on defense got nerfed. Privateers especially who are completely built on being able to over stack and buff up their companions REALLY got the shaft with this new rule. They can't enhance their companions with double dodge to make them hard to hit. They can't double boost their armor to protect from a four way cloaked onslaught. And sadly they don't really have any really powerful hits to compensate for the loss armor. They used to be able to double critical to make their hits power up...but oops...thats limited now too. That huge loss combined with the bucklers move for stopping healing...makes succeeding with a privateer very hard now. Buccaneer's feel it second most but have at least some decent options. But all the others seem relatively unaffected.

unaffected? look at how musketeer is dealing with swashbucklers -50% to traps along with 1 fort is enough to make musketeer traps useless and swashbucklers have the highest foot speed so they go around the traps AND while the entire crew is hidden they avoid overwatch and burst fire chains. Witchdoctor does have certain counters against swashbuckler but privy buccaneer and musketeer are definitely effected, one solution that could work for everyone is allowing repel borders to remove fog, this way it won't get nerfed and privateers along with buccaneers will be able to counter bucklers, as for musketeer I still don't really know what they can do (credits to eric stormbringer on the idea bout repel borders)

01Shadowblade on Jul 27, 2015 wrote:

If you think Fog should be weaker / let us be sure that the prime skill of all the other classes is also made weaker

FOG in PvP is nothing / the player is not really hidden / you can still bomb them / still wee where they are moving / and it has a time limit on how many rounds / so WORK around it

How? You say it is nothing, but everything thing you said between those unnecessary slashes is ineffective or incorrect.

Fog in Pvp is nothing
What are you talking about? It is extremely powerful and is universally used by swashbucklers

The player is not really hidden
Yes. They are. They cannot be targeted by any single target attack.

You can still bomb them
Yes, you can. However, besides the temptest of tornado's which only has a 35% chance (I think) of working per bomb (and even that only stops them for a turn), becuase of the alert talent, they do not do enough damage to actually do much.

You can still see where they are moving
Yes, but again, the only thing you can do is what is mentioned above.

It has a time limit.
Yes. Of five rounds! that is far long enough to double buff, run across the field, and attack.

So WORK around it.
How? What is an even somewhat consistent way to work around fog?

Voodoo Cornelius on Jul 29, 2015 wrote:

How? You say it is nothing, but everything thing you said between those unnecessary slashes is ineffective or incorrect.

Fog in Pvp is nothing
What are you talking about? It is extremely powerful and is universally used by swashbucklers

The player is not really hidden
Yes. They are. They cannot be targeted by any single target attack.

You can still bomb them
Yes, you can. However, besides the temptest of tornado's which only has a 35% chance (I think) of working per bomb (and even that only stops them for a turn), becuase of the alert talent, they do not do enough damage to actually do much.

You can still see where they are moving
Yes, but again, the only thing you can do is what is mentioned above.

It has a time limit.
Yes. Of five rounds! that is far long enough to double buff, run across the field, and attack.

So WORK around it.
How? What is an even somewhat consistent way to work around fog?

Agreed 100%, swashbucklers are trying to tell me counters but the chances of them actually working is really random, they have alert to counter bombs, are immune to melee hits for 5 rounds, are immune to single hits from WD's AND get double damage? and people think this isnt op