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No Strategy Needed?

3
AuthorMessage
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Silver Angel on Apr 15, 2016 wrote:
Nothing prevents Ki to buff swashbuckler stats and weaken fog/hide.

Sure you only have one fog, then how many other hides? Sarah also has an extra hide, Kan Po as well.

How many outrageous damage hits is that?

Even after its used up, you decimated your opponent's team anyway so you dont need another.
Hmm, last time I checked, Kan Po wasn't on my swashbuckler's crew. Of course, I could just buy Keisuki Yagi - in fact, you could do that, too and benefit from his heal & his own hide. You could hide yourself; then there's 2 devastating attacks for you. ( Using your own suggestions. )
Oh yes, I very likely could use another fog, as I'm facing stacked VA/Fort, Levis, Whales Might, Shark's Fury, Battle zeal, Discipline ( enhanced by Old Scratch, etc, ad nauseum. )
Here we go now with the circular arguments.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Silver Angel on Apr 15, 2016 wrote:
Nothing prevents Ki to buff swashbuckler stats and weaken fog/hide.

Sure you only have one fog, then how many other hides? Sarah also has an extra hide, Kan Po as well.

How many outrageous damage hits is that?

Even after its used up, you decimated your opponent's team anyway so you dont need another.
"Nothing prevents KI to buff swashbuckler stats and weaken fog/hide."
No, thank you, I don't wish my swashbuckler to be changed into a buccaneer just to satisfy someone else's inability to use the tools in place that counters hide.
Instead of demanding a nerf on a signature class power, why don't you read past post dealing with the fog is OP issue?
I don't know why this is suddenly popping up again when its already been answered by KI ( in using the talents to counter fog. )
Not to mention what Old Scratch is doing to PVP.
Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
398
anecorbie on Apr 15, 2016 wrote:
"Nothing prevents KI to buff swashbuckler stats and weaken fog/hide."
No, thank you, I don't wish my swashbuckler to be changed into a buccaneer just to satisfy someone else's inability to use the tools in place that counters hide.
Instead of demanding a nerf on a signature class power, why don't you read past post dealing with the fog is OP issue?
I don't know why this is suddenly popping up again when its already been answered by KI ( in using the talents to counter fog. )
Not to mention what Old Scratch is doing to PVP.
Kan Po or Keisuke, same thing. The point is he is more beneficial to a swash than other classes, using the hide "strategy". And I have him, thanks though.

Where did I *demand* a nerf? I just suggested an idea since you complain you're too weak without your overpowered card.

I read the past posts too.

Basically nothing changed, "tools" or not.
Admiral
Jun 02, 2013
1472
Sunny Wolf on Apr 13, 2016 wrote:
There are ways to lower their critical chance on you late game, Hoodoo Touch and Wind Spirit are really useful against Swashbucklers.
Especially as a witchdoctor, against SB mutineers grasp is an important late game card for me vs SB
I can even use Davy Jones reach and the SB team loses 25% critical chance
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Silver Angel on Apr 16, 2016 wrote:
Kan Po or Keisuke, same thing. The point is he is more beneficial to a swash than other classes, using the hide "strategy". And I have him, thanks though.

Where did I *demand* a nerf? I just suggested an idea since you complain you're too weak without your overpowered card.

I read the past posts too.

Basically nothing changed, "tools" or not.
My card isn't overpowered, there is the disagreement. ALL classes have select powers which are difficult to over-come.
Neither did I say that I was "too weak". I'm confident in my classes powers and talents. I was explaining why my class has that card.
Nothing has changed, because the mind sets ( "Fog is OP" ) haven't changed.
Lieutenant
Sep 14, 2015
162
anecorbie on Apr 6, 2016 wrote:
All other classes have their strategies and ( mostly ) all of them follow a pattern. The most you can say is that SBs are in a rut and don't innovate, but why should they when this strategy ( and it is a strategy ) works? They aren't relying on a single card but a combination of them, well that sounds to me like a strategy.
If you don't want to use the Marchioness, then I suggest you farm Bishop for his Technomage glasses.
But wait that takes a turn to use too, well in that case if you still don't choose to use a counter to an attack, then don't expect KI to provide a solution, when there's already a counter in the game.
If you know they will rush you, why not use Emmett's slow down de-buff? ( believe me, this works and its annoying as heck. )
Purge if used by hidden removing hidden is reasonable.
Purged used as removing hidden ( no matter what ) is unbalanced.
It's obvious to me that you don't wish to change your strategy to meet the demands of another class.
Maybe I'll farm Bishop for Technomage glasses using my Fog 'n' Buff strategy
Lieutenant
Sep 14, 2015
162
witchdoctor daruis on Apr 16, 2016 wrote:
Especially as a witchdoctor, against SB mutineers grasp is an important late game card for me vs SB
I can even use Davy Jones reach and the SB team loses 25% critical chance
Not very useful when me and all my companions have automatic super hit, eh?
Thank goodness I'm a swashbuckler.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
witchdoctor daruis on Apr 16, 2016 wrote:
Especially as a witchdoctor, against SB mutineers grasp is an important late game card for me vs SB
I can even use Davy Jones reach and the SB team loses 25% critical chance
Yes, I have had this happen to me in a pvp match, and then I know I may be in trouble; because that WD has demonstrated an understanding of swashbuckler tactics.
Well done.
Admiral
Jun 02, 2013
1472
Captain Blaze Hunt... on Apr 17, 2016 wrote:
Not very useful when me and all my companions have automatic super hit, eh?
Thank goodness I'm a swashbuckler.
That's why I use barricade strategy, you can only super hit my Ratbeard who witch first strike 3 will remove your hide, then your relentless will not critical and he will have tritons song, not so useful when you don't have your hide are you?
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
witchdoctor daruis on Apr 18, 2016 wrote:
That's why I use barricade strategy, you can only super hit my Ratbeard who witch first strike 3 will remove your hide, then your relentless will not critical and he will have tritons song, not so useful when you don't have your hide are you?
Yes! someone who understands the barricade strategy and the importance of a FS3 companion! That's what using the tools gives you - a chance to win!
Lieutenant
Sep 14, 2015
162
witchdoctor daruis on Apr 18, 2016 wrote:
That's why I use barricade strategy, you can only super hit my Ratbeard who witch first strike 3 will remove your hide, then your relentless will not critical and he will have tritons song, not so useful when you don't have your hide are you?
Good point! I'll keep that in mind
Admiral
Jun 02, 2013
1472
anecorbie on Apr 18, 2016 wrote:
Yes! someone who understands the barricade strategy and the importance of a FS3 companion! That's what using the tools gives you - a chance to win!
More than a chance, I usually win 9/10 battles against a SB I win
Petty Officer
Jul 25, 2013
75
witchdoctor daruis on Apr 18, 2016 wrote:
That's why I use barricade strategy, you can only super hit my Ratbeard who witch first strike 3 will remove your hide, then your relentless will not critical and he will have tritons song, not so useful when you don't have your hide are you?
Most bucklers know by now how to counter raise barricade. Even if they fog round 1, they still have five turns to move across the board kill the unit with FS 3 with Toro and Nausica since a well placed Nausica will chain kill ratbeard, and fan and the pirate still have access to another one of your units, leaving most players with a 2-3/4, Buckler in the lead. Normally though, fan can easily one round sratch/nausica, whichever one I put out in 3rd, pirate most likely 3rd slot. If not, well then pirate at fourth slot giving them another advantage with a probable 1-3/4. Even the most accomplished privateer will have a hard time with a curse on them and a purge to remove your protection buffs. Also, keep in mind that they have 1 Wis, and 1 already used fog, and around 3 or 4 WiD, outlasting a privateer setup, usually with 4 forts, timing out scratch buffs as well, so shroud doesn't heal hardly as much and can't heal since the curse is up. A privateer has very different late game methods than a witch. Losing two units to an opponents 3/4 puts the other player in a powerful position, forcing us to go with the shroud tank strategy, and in my 3/4 battles where I've been forced into a position like this against buckler, they've always hit me when I'm in elusive with espirit up, and witch hunter NEVER misses for me (idk about everyone else). Buckler is the only one that can put me in scenarios like that, even the so called OP buck is easier to beat since their chains actually tend to miss, even in tide 3.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Celestialmaster147 on Apr 20, 2016 wrote:
Most bucklers know by now how to counter raise barricade. Even if they fog round 1, they still have five turns to move across the board kill the unit with FS 3 with Toro and Nausica since a well placed Nausica will chain kill ratbeard, and fan and the pirate still have access to another one of your units, leaving most players with a 2-3/4, Buckler in the lead. Normally though, fan can easily one round sratch/nausica, whichever one I put out in 3rd, pirate most likely 3rd slot. If not, well then pirate at fourth slot giving them another advantage with a probable 1-3/4. Even the most accomplished privateer will have a hard time with a curse on them and a purge to remove your protection buffs. Also, keep in mind that they have 1 Wis, and 1 already used fog, and around 3 or 4 WiD, outlasting a privateer setup, usually with 4 forts, timing out scratch buffs as well, so shroud doesn't heal hardly as much and can't heal since the curse is up. A privateer has very different late game methods than a witch. Losing two units to an opponents 3/4 puts the other player in a powerful position, forcing us to go with the shroud tank strategy, and in my 3/4 battles where I've been forced into a position like this against buckler, they've always hit me when I'm in elusive with espirit up, and witch hunter NEVER misses for me (idk about everyone else). Buckler is the only one that can put me in scenarios like that, even the so called OP buck is easier to beat since their chains actually tend to miss, even in tide 3.
Not all strategies can be used by all classes, what Darius describes is best used by WDs and MKs.
As for PVs, if they wish to get rid of negative affects ( like curse or decreased accuracy ) then the best option available to them is to use Marchioness's Drain Magic or Technomage Glasses from Bishop.
Also to stop SBs in their tracks, I recommend Emmett's "slow down", it has been used effectively against me and it does work.
Admiral
Jun 02, 2013
1472
Celestialmaster147 on Apr 20, 2016 wrote:
Most bucklers know by now how to counter raise barricade. Even if they fog round 1, they still have five turns to move across the board kill the unit with FS 3 with Toro and Nausica since a well placed Nausica will chain kill ratbeard, and fan and the pirate still have access to another one of your units, leaving most players with a 2-3/4, Buckler in the lead. Normally though, fan can easily one round sratch/nausica, whichever one I put out in 3rd, pirate most likely 3rd slot. If not, well then pirate at fourth slot giving them another advantage with a probable 1-3/4. Even the most accomplished privateer will have a hard time with a curse on them and a purge to remove your protection buffs. Also, keep in mind that they have 1 Wis, and 1 already used fog, and around 3 or 4 WiD, outlasting a privateer setup, usually with 4 forts, timing out scratch buffs as well, so shroud doesn't heal hardly as much and can't heal since the curse is up. A privateer has very different late game methods than a witch. Losing two units to an opponents 3/4 puts the other player in a powerful position, forcing us to go with the shroud tank strategy, and in my 3/4 battles where I've been forced into a position like this against buckler, they've always hit me when I'm in elusive with espirit up, and witch hunter NEVER misses for me (idk about everyone else). Buckler is the only one that can put me in scenarios like that, even the so called OP buck is easier to beat since their chains actually tend to miss, even in tide 3.
Toro will do little damage to ratbeard and then I can just use ratbeards Buccanners strike and toro is useless for 5 rounds, as with Nausica I just heal my ratbeard, he rarely dies the first time Nausica attacks
Petty Officer
Jul 25, 2013
75
anecorbie on Apr 21, 2016 wrote:
Not all strategies can be used by all classes, what Darius describes is best used by WDs and MKs.
As for PVs, if they wish to get rid of negative affects ( like curse or decreased accuracy ) then the best option available to them is to use Marchioness's Drain Magic or Technomage Glasses from Bishop.
Also to stop SBs in their tracks, I recommend Emmett's "slow down", it has been used effectively against me and it does work.
I have been using Emmet's reduce, and it does seem to create pressure, but the normal team of fan, toro, and nausica don't care as they can still reach you after the reduce ends. Bonnie seems to work better as support, at least I have an option to get a pretty good heal after I die.Shroud works better than Techno glasses in most late game matches that allow me to win late game with Shroud Tank. Techno glasses is useful, but after they get to elusive, i have no shot at hitting them, at all after my powers are all gone.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Celestialmaster147 on Apr 24, 2016 wrote:
I have been using Emmet's reduce, and it does seem to create pressure, but the normal team of fan, toro, and nausica don't care as they can still reach you after the reduce ends. Bonnie seems to work better as support, at least I have an option to get a pretty good heal after I die.Shroud works better than Techno glasses in most late game matches that allow me to win late game with Shroud Tank. Techno glasses is useful, but after they get to elusive, i have no shot at hitting them, at all after my powers are all gone.
But does their fog end before the reduce does; if this is the case, then you've removed the devastating x2 weapon power attack and you're in a better place to survive to the next round.
Petty Officer
Jul 25, 2013
75
anecorbie on Apr 25, 2016 wrote:
But does their fog end before the reduce does; if this is the case, then you've removed the devastating x2 weapon power attack and you're in a better place to survive to the next round.
No. It doesn't, fan, toro, and nausica can all reach before fog ends because Emmet can't use his reduce first turn unless I get really really lucky.
Bosun
Apr 26, 2009
303
In my opinion PVP is just absolutely broken, well from the perspective of a musket/witch player who's played over 200 matches (though never gotten to champ) it seems nearly impossible to get anywhere. Against privy I will spread out best I can but regardless I will still get bombed and all my units will be damaged by the bombs. I'm not sure how it hasn't been nerfed yet. There is NO counter to it and its absolutely ridiculous how much damage it does. It either needs some changes or needs to be banned from PVP.

Well what about the other classes? Well against buccaneer I get maybe one round to prep, and if i don't get a good hand too bad, here comes the entire legion of bucks with a high critical chance to absolutely destroy me unless I get lucky.

Swashbuckler is the same way. I get maybe one or two rounds of prep, they'll black fog and just charge me. The only counters being a sniff pet or ratbeard first strike 3 (and lets be real, if they have any brain they'll just attack anyone else)

I feel like the Swashbuckler and Buck are way too reliant on luck and critical hits to EVER make a completely fair PVP environment. The only fair matches it seems the ranged classes get are between themselves, and the occasional good vs swashbuckler match. I don't totally agree with the point of the original post but PVP is just utterly unbalanced on so many levels.

DISCLAIMER: I have played my majority of matches with witch and musket and a few privy matches.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Dead Eye Luke on May 3, 2016 wrote:
In my opinion PVP is just absolutely broken, well from the perspective of a musket/witch player who's played over 200 matches (though never gotten to champ) it seems nearly impossible to get anywhere. Against privy I will spread out best I can but regardless I will still get bombed and all my units will be damaged by the bombs. I'm not sure how it hasn't been nerfed yet. There is NO counter to it and its absolutely ridiculous how much damage it does. It either needs some changes or needs to be banned from PVP.

Well what about the other classes? Well against buccaneer I get maybe one round to prep, and if i don't get a good hand too bad, here comes the entire legion of bucks with a high critical chance to absolutely destroy me unless I get lucky.

Swashbuckler is the same way. I get maybe one or two rounds of prep, they'll black fog and just charge me. The only counters being a sniff pet or ratbeard first strike 3 (and lets be real, if they have any brain they'll just attack anyone else)

I feel like the Swashbuckler and Buck are way too reliant on luck and critical hits to EVER make a completely fair PVP environment. The only fair matches it seems the ranged classes get are between themselves, and the occasional good vs swashbuckler match. I don't totally agree with the point of the original post but PVP is just utterly unbalanced on so many levels.

DISCLAIMER: I have played my majority of matches with witch and musket and a few privy matches.
Here we go, another "ban the signature power of a class because I can't handle it." Take away a Privateer's bombs and what attacks do they have? Repel Boarders? If they have any attacks at all, its from using a training point or gear/pet.
Are you going to make them rely solely on their buffs, shields & heals? This would cripple them as a PVP class.
Where are your shooting AoEs? You don't have to target to use those and you can still hit a hidden buckler with them.
Yes, luck can be a determining factor, but you can plan for it. Have a contingency ready if the "favored" strategy fails to work because the cards don't show.
Bosun
Apr 26, 2009
303
anecorbie on May 3, 2016 wrote:
Here we go, another "ban the signature power of a class because I can't handle it." Take away a Privateer's bombs and what attacks do they have? Repel Boarders? If they have any attacks at all, its from using a training point or gear/pet.
Are you going to make them rely solely on their buffs, shields & heals? This would cripple them as a PVP class.
Where are your shooting AoEs? You don't have to target to use those and you can still hit a hidden buckler with them.
Yes, luck can be a determining factor, but you can plan for it. Have a contingency ready if the "favored" strategy fails to work because the cards don't show.
I don't strongly think that it should be completely banned but I do think it deserves a small adjustment, maybe have it restricted by vision, but then again that would make it nearly useless. Maybe no super hits? Don't know technologically how they could do that but really the infinite range supers doing 900+ damage are pretty ridiculous. Other than that I can't really see any reasonable nerf to it without making it completely useless.
Bosun
Apr 26, 2009
303
anecorbie on May 3, 2016 wrote:
Here we go, another "ban the signature power of a class because I can't handle it." Take away a Privateer's bombs and what attacks do they have? Repel Boarders? If they have any attacks at all, its from using a training point or gear/pet.
Are you going to make them rely solely on their buffs, shields & heals? This would cripple them as a PVP class.
Where are your shooting AoEs? You don't have to target to use those and you can still hit a hidden buckler with them.
Yes, luck can be a determining factor, but you can plan for it. Have a contingency ready if the "favored" strategy fails to work because the cards don't show.
Don't want to double post but I also want to mention that I don't feel like a black fog nerf is really necessary but I am saying that I just don't see any way pirate PVP could ever be in a completely balanced state because of the luck involved. If powers show up, if relentless activates, crits, etc.

I just mean that I find it excruciatingly frustrating when I don't get a power that can help me counter someone who does get the right powers because against the melee classes it really feels like the tide of the game really goes to who gets the good first hand. In the grand scheme of things there are very few things I actually feel need nerfs but a couple changes to make it more strategic without making a blow at the core of the class would be nice to have.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Dead Eye Luke on May 4, 2016 wrote:
I don't strongly think that it should be completely banned but I do think it deserves a small adjustment, maybe have it restricted by vision, but then again that would make it nearly useless. Maybe no super hits? Don't know technologically how they could do that but really the infinite range supers doing 900+ damage are pretty ridiculous. Other than that I can't really see any reasonable nerf to it without making it completely useless.
Is that damage buffed by Old Scratch?
Bosun
Apr 26, 2009
303
anecorbie on May 4, 2016 wrote:
Is that damage buffed by Old Scratch?
Yes and it's just kind of a rough estimate. I don't really know how KI will change up PVP in the next update, could nerf it, might not. And also I feel like my initial post was kinda fueled out of frustration cause I had just lost a match. My view might also be a bit skewed by the fact that I PVP mainly on ranged classes. Anyways I just am looking forward to a more balanced all around arena.
Lieutenant
Aug 17, 2014
122
Purge is OP for privateers, i recommend using it
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