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Not fun... thanks to black fog

4
AuthorMessage
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
tenmaxz11 on Sep 2, 2015 wrote:
i swear at this rate for this update of ranked pvp with buckler just hogging the wins
it will eventually go down and barely anyone will play rank if nothing gonna be changed
Swashbuckler's "hogging" wins? Since when are wins parceled out in shares?
"Oh wait, you have too many wins, we're going to have to give your share to Jim-Bob over here because he hasn't got enough."
How many bucklers are, in fact, at champion level? How many Musketeers, Buccaneers, Privateers, etc? And how many of those have the Imperial Robes of Moo Manchu or the Nefarious Staff, or both? ( or any gear considered "OP". )
I'm tired of PVP-ers blaming a single power ( be it Black Fog or any other ) on their losses; when, in fact, if we could have watched those matches, something else would be revealed ( like a poor strategy. )
Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
I am not really sure why people are even considering Black Fog as an issue anymore, with companions getting even more talents now, it is possible to stop hidden companions, to attack hidden companions first, etc.

Black Fog is only an issue for those not trying to come up with a strategy against it.
Petty Officer
May 14, 2011
70
I think the addition of first strike 3 will be helpful for non Buckler, and I'd like to point out traps still hurt fogged along with splash. And, the moo-robes are a way of combating this. Maybe get some shields? Though I'd suggest a team of crew with strike three. Maybe Ratbeard with a rank three first strike, Rank 3 hold the line (Reduces dodge) and a repel two? Ill look for some other quality anti-fog ability crew.
Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
bluba4 on Sep 2, 2015 wrote:
The smallest board happens to be the one used in ranked...

Taking the extra turn to reposition my char on the end of the barricade is exactly why I don't do it! That's exactly my point. If I take the extra turn to reposition my troops, the buckler can swoop in for the kill while my companions are standing outside the barrier. The difference between purge and barricade is that the player casting the barricade has the movement restriction whereas the player purging has no movement restriction at all! Instead you're imposing a movement restriction on the other player in order for them to avoid losing all protection. That's a huge difference!

Yes espirit buffs both sides if both sides use Toro. However, swashbuckler companions even without dodgy trained have a higher base dodge than any melee class does accuracy. As a result, the dodge buff will be greater than the accuracy buff. Also Toro is more helpful for bucklers because fan has an agility buff whereas buccaneers only come with strength buffs.

I don't see how you've established that hidden purge has any drawbacks. You're claiming you have to move around to hit me with it. However that goes for any of your attacks. You're going to have to reach me anyways so that's not a drawback.

As it stands now, the ONLY counter to hidden purge besides running around and having fast two trained (otherwise you trap me in a corner) is being hidden yourself. The problem with this is that bucklers will always have more hidden powers than any other class so you can wait until all my hides are up, then purge me.

If you think swashbucklers need a buff because somehow barricade is op, purge should not be the answer.
"The smallest board happens to be the one used in ranked... "
-Yet even here there are several boards that would require a swash more than one round to get within purge range.

"The difference between purge and barricade is that the player casting the barricade has the movement restriction whereas the player purging has no movement restriction at all!"
-Both purge and barricade are counter powers that impose restrictions on the caster, Barricade imposes movement restriction and positioning constraints on the caster. Purge imposes movement restrictions, positioning restrictions and buff restrictions on the caster.

"Yes espirit buffs both sides if both sides use Toro. However, swashbuckler companions even without dodgy trained have a higher base dodge than any melee class does accuracy."
-Exactly, yet as we have seen in real ranked matches buccaneer companions can easily hit swash companions especially when tide 2 comes into effect. On the other hand swash companions are often hard pressed to hit el toro buffed buccaneer companions.

"I don't see how you've established that hidden purge has any drawbacks. You're going to have to reach me anyways so that's not a drawback."
-The difference is I have to move around to you, not use any buffs, and you have to maintain your position once I get in range. It's the difference in styles between chantal and nausica. You can't charge a chantal into battle and have her attack in the same round but you can do that with nausica. The fact is that each time I reach into purge range you always have the option of removing yourself unless you choose to limit your own movement.

"The problem with this is that bucklers will always have more hidden powers than any other class so you can wait until all my hides are up, then purge me."
-Waiting out a defensively cast hide means
a)The buckler wasted his offensive hide and
b)The buckler is then exposed to heavy damage.

Purge is the answer to buff stacking. It is already limited enough as is.
Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
tenmaxz11 on Sep 2, 2015 wrote:
i swear at this rate for this update of ranked pvp with buckler just hogging the wins
it will eventually go down and barely anyone will play rank if nothing gonna be changed
Except for the fact that buccaneers are a tier higher than bucklers?
Ensign
Oct 08, 2012
49
As I said, black fog is not op or anything. Its just a power that swashbucklers overuse and abuse. There are at least 5 ways I can counter it and win the match. It's based off how you proceed to attack and when you strike. Strike at the wrong time and your dead. Don't complain about this please.
Lieutenant
May 09, 2013
157
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 3, 2015 wrote:
"The smallest board happens to be the one used in ranked... "
-Yet even here there are several boards that would require a swash more than one round to get within purge range.

"The difference between purge and barricade is that the player casting the barricade has the movement restriction whereas the player purging has no movement restriction at all!"
-Both purge and barricade are counter powers that impose restrictions on the caster, Barricade imposes movement restriction and positioning constraints on the caster. Purge imposes movement restrictions, positioning restrictions and buff restrictions on the caster.

"Yes espirit buffs both sides if both sides use Toro. However, swashbuckler companions even without dodgy trained have a higher base dodge than any melee class does accuracy."
-Exactly, yet as we have seen in real ranked matches buccaneer companions can easily hit swash companions especially when tide 2 comes into effect. On the other hand swash companions are often hard pressed to hit el toro buffed buccaneer companions.

"I don't see how you've established that hidden purge has any drawbacks. You're going to have to reach me anyways so that's not a drawback."
-The difference is I have to move around to you, not use any buffs, and you have to maintain your position once I get in range. It's the difference in styles between chantal and nausica. You can't charge a chantal into battle and have her attack in the same round but you can do that with nausica. The fact is that each time I reach into purge range you always have the option of removing yourself unless you choose to limit your own movement.

"The problem with this is that bucklers will always have more hidden powers than any other class so you can wait until all my hides are up, then purge me."
-Waiting out a defensively cast hide means
a)The buckler wasted his offensive hide and
b)The buckler is then exposed to heavy damage.

Purge is the answer to buff stacking. It is already limited enough as is.
Dude I don't know if you have seen the other side to these things or if you're just looking at it as a buckler. Why don't you try buffing for a turn then spending the next four turns running around the board and spreading out all your companions around? Let me know how it works. Lots of people have posted strategies to counter hidden and black fog. Nobody recommends moving around. The problem also is that the only turns I have to buff are the first two, if I get a large map. That makes pete's whale's might useless because if casted on the second turn, it will end the turn you come out of hidden. My levi call will only have two turns left, unless I get good draws and triton and valor's shield on first two turns.

You can't even compare barricade and purge. It takes one turn to move into position for barricade, then one to cast. That's two turns. Then I have COMPLETE movement restriction and only one or two companions will be able to attack at a time. Purge makes you sacrifice the same two turns I did to move in range and then cast it. Even if it takes two turns to move close enough, you would have to move the first turn anyways, except the second turn you would attack instead of move again. So you only lose two turns to purge, same as I do, except your companions can buff after and you still have hidden x2 bonus.

Purge is the answer to buff stacking even if it removes hidden. Look at witchdoctors, they can use purge effectively and I dare say they are more vulnerable than any buckler with even lower strength and dodge. Buff stacking is the counter to hidden, you can't just take that away from us and expect to deal 1800 damage on a bucc for free. If the bucc decides to attack you on the turn you purge, he's risking a whole lot of riposte and then you have companions that can hit him next turn with guaranteed hits while he has no shields. Look at who's vulnerable now.
Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
bluba4 on Sep 3, 2015 wrote:
Dude I don't know if you have seen the other side to these things or if you're just looking at it as a buckler. Why don't you try buffing for a turn then spending the next four turns running around the board and spreading out all your companions around? Let me know how it works. Lots of people have posted strategies to counter hidden and black fog. Nobody recommends moving around. The problem also is that the only turns I have to buff are the first two, if I get a large map. That makes pete's whale's might useless because if casted on the second turn, it will end the turn you come out of hidden. My levi call will only have two turns left, unless I get good draws and triton and valor's shield on first two turns.

You can't even compare barricade and purge. It takes one turn to move into position for barricade, then one to cast. That's two turns. Then I have COMPLETE movement restriction and only one or two companions will be able to attack at a time. Purge makes you sacrifice the same two turns I did to move in range and then cast it. Even if it takes two turns to move close enough, you would have to move the first turn anyways, except the second turn you would attack instead of move again. So you only lose two turns to purge, same as I do, except your companions can buff after and you still have hidden x2 bonus.

Purge is the answer to buff stacking even if it removes hidden. Look at witchdoctors, they can use purge effectively and I dare say they are more vulnerable than any buckler with even lower strength and dodge. Buff stacking is the counter to hidden, you can't just take that away from us and expect to deal 1800 damage on a bucc for free. If the bucc decides to attack you on the turn you purge, he's risking a whole lot of riposte and then you have companions that can hit him next turn with guaranteed hits while he has no shields. Look at who's vulnerable now.
Yes I have seen the other side of the issue. I have a max level buccaneer that partakes in PvP and the only trouble he has is with musketeers and smart witchdoctors. The only swash who has been able to beat me with any consistency is Quiet Jacques and that was independent of purge magic as he had not used that in any of our matches. Why are you spending 4 rounds moving around? It only takes 1 round to spread your companions to the point where a swash's purge could at max affect one companion.

On the other hand when you cast barricade that's a complete negation of 3/4 of your opponent's fog guaranteed with nothing your opponent can do about it. Even with a hidden purge...you always have the option of countering it unless you choose not to. Once the barricade is cast a swash has no answer to it.

Witches use purge effectively when they are hidden also and additionally also can use it to greater effect due to their defensive playstayle and reliance on summons. Purge is not a free take away. Purge only works if you let it work, prevents buffs on my end as well and requires a 3x3 aoe and movement on my end. If you attack the round I purge my swash is guaranteed dead regardless of the whole lot of riposte while your pirate is still very much alive.
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Ok lots of people on here have been complaining about black fog. Well thats not the real issue. To be honest I agree with Ratbeard and all those others. If they dont have black fog what do they have really? Ill tell you what they have. The true issue with swashbuckler school is the poison. There is NO consequences for using poison. And a buckler learns 2 poison naturally and usually has a 3rd from gear. Each one does ~1000 damage. That means a swashbuckler can do ~3000 damage without ever breaking their cloak! But wait there is more...one of those 1000 damages stops healing too. Now does this seem unfair to anyone else?

And remember they are still cloaked which mean their assassin strike (with more bleeding on top of poison) is rearing and ready to go for double its damage while the poison sucks your life away. So for those of you who are counting. That is 3000 free damage + roughly 4800 damage from 3 strikes + 1500 damage from 3 bleeding. Oh and if they have the fire axe throw on another 900 for good measure. That is 9,300-10,200 give or take a few hundred. Now some will argue that you can have fort gear and stack shields and all that garbage. But that wont save you from that level of damage. My buck has 2 forts and 4 lament/call shields and 2 25% shields and I still cant block that much damage on top of fog and no healing and swashbucklers who bring their own forts and moo robes to boot.

I am sorry but this has to be fixed. Poison NEEDS to break the cloak. Bucklers need to be forced to choose between assassin strike and poison. You cant allow them to have both that is just too over powered and unfair. Or they can assassin strike first THEN poison. But that at the very least gives you a small window to heal or retaliate. Please Mr. Ratbeard. Bonnie Anne. Please please fix this. All you have to do is give it a tiny bit of initial damage like fire elf or pretty much any DoT that wizard101 does.

Thank you for reading this post. Please respond with your thoughts.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 5, 2015 wrote:
Ok lots of people on here have been complaining about black fog. Well thats not the real issue. To be honest I agree with Ratbeard and all those others. If they dont have black fog what do they have really? Ill tell you what they have. The true issue with swashbuckler school is the poison. There is NO consequences for using poison. And a buckler learns 2 poison naturally and usually has a 3rd from gear. Each one does ~1000 damage. That means a swashbuckler can do ~3000 damage without ever breaking their cloak! But wait there is more...one of those 1000 damages stops healing too. Now does this seem unfair to anyone else?

And remember they are still cloaked which mean their assassin strike (with more bleeding on top of poison) is rearing and ready to go for double its damage while the poison sucks your life away. So for those of you who are counting. That is 3000 free damage + roughly 4800 damage from 3 strikes + 1500 damage from 3 bleeding. Oh and if they have the fire axe throw on another 900 for good measure. That is 9,300-10,200 give or take a few hundred. Now some will argue that you can have fort gear and stack shields and all that garbage. But that wont save you from that level of damage. My buck has 2 forts and 4 lament/call shields and 2 25% shields and I still cant block that much damage on top of fog and no healing and swashbucklers who bring their own forts and moo robes to boot.

I am sorry but this has to be fixed. Poison NEEDS to break the cloak. Bucklers need to be forced to choose between assassin strike and poison. You cant allow them to have both that is just too over powered and unfair. Or they can assassin strike first THEN poison. But that at the very least gives you a small window to heal or retaliate. Please Mr. Ratbeard. Bonnie Anne. Please please fix this. All you have to do is give it a tiny bit of initial damage like fire elf or pretty much any DoT that wizard101 does.

Thank you for reading this post. Please respond with your thoughts.
You've over exaggerated the numbers and made a few mistakes - Swashbucklers learn 3 poisons and can get 1 poison from a weapon ( and of course extra poisons from gear.)
Assassin's Mist, Assassin's Gloom, & Assassin's Shroud; all of these do 182 damage for 5 rounds = 910, so don't tell me your Leviathan or Kraken's can't reduce this to survivable levels.
Vengeance Shroud ( from the Staff of Power ) does no damage at all, just applies the non-healing curse for 5 rounds. ( the same as Assassin's Shroud. )
Being sneaky and striking from shadows is what the Swashbuckler class is about ( it's no coincidence that most of our best powers are proceeded by the word assassin. ) The poison series doesn't use a weapon to cause the damage so that's why poison won't "out" a hidden buckler.
Now about the strikes, admittedly, these are powerful; but when you consider that we are immediately in danger as soon as we leave our hidden state, this seems to me to be balanced.
Taking the Staff of Power as an example and using Assassin's Strike - the staff's weapon power is 193 + the 840 of the initial strike + 243 bleeding damage for 2 rounds = 1,518 ( Nothing like the 3 or 4 thousand mentioned,kinda puts this all into perspective, doesn't it?)
Even if the buckler is using a weapon that does more damage, I contend that a buck with higher health, armor and access to damage reduction powers and fort or armor from gear can stand up to the damage dealt by a buckler.
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
anecorbie on Sep 6, 2015 wrote:
You've over exaggerated the numbers and made a few mistakes - Swashbucklers learn 3 poisons and can get 1 poison from a weapon ( and of course extra poisons from gear.)
Assassin's Mist, Assassin's Gloom, & Assassin's Shroud; all of these do 182 damage for 5 rounds = 910, so don't tell me your Leviathan or Kraken's can't reduce this to survivable levels.
Vengeance Shroud ( from the Staff of Power ) does no damage at all, just applies the non-healing curse for 5 rounds. ( the same as Assassin's Shroud. )
Being sneaky and striking from shadows is what the Swashbuckler class is about ( it's no coincidence that most of our best powers are proceeded by the word assassin. ) The poison series doesn't use a weapon to cause the damage so that's why poison won't "out" a hidden buckler.
Now about the strikes, admittedly, these are powerful; but when you consider that we are immediately in danger as soon as we leave our hidden state, this seems to me to be balanced.
Taking the Staff of Power as an example and using Assassin's Strike - the staff's weapon power is 193 + the 840 of the initial strike + 243 bleeding damage for 2 rounds = 1,518 ( Nothing like the 3 or 4 thousand mentioned,kinda puts this all into perspective, doesn't it?)
Even if the buckler is using a weapon that does more damage, I contend that a buck with higher health, armor and access to damage reduction powers and fort or armor from gear can stand up to the damage dealt by a buckler.
First of all this symbol ~ means approximately. And many bucklers have krokatopia as the place they were raised so for them its 199 for 5 rounds. So its 996 in other words 1000.

Second....you took assassin strike at face value forgetting its doubled when cloaked. So 840 x 2 = 1680. Do that 3 times with 3 cloaks and 3 assassin strikes does equal the numbers I told you . Also with the mojo mastery and krock birth it is 250+ for two rounds. So yes that does = 500.

Thirdly Levianths call and Krakens lament does NOTHING to reduce poison. It is magic damage so unless you have a fort you bucks DO gain the full brunt of that damage.

Fourth I never said those shields cant reduce some damage. But the fact of the matter is even with the reduced damage there is no way to block numbers that are that high.

Kind of puts it into perspective when your not in denial. So again I repeat. 996 x 3 = 2988 840 doubled (with cloak) = 1680 x 3 = 5040 add in bleeding at 500 damage x 3 = 1500 Add all those numbers together (and this time i took the conservative measure into considerations) and you get 9528. So no I did not exaggerate that much. But thank you for splitting hairs.

Add this the fact that bucks pack on a moo robe which they cast from the shadows. Cloaking their own team. And defense gear they use BEFORE coming out of cloak. And you have someone who is invincible.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 5, 2015 wrote:
Ok lots of people on here have been complaining about black fog. Well thats not the real issue. To be honest I agree with Ratbeard and all those others. If they dont have black fog what do they have really? Ill tell you what they have. The true issue with swashbuckler school is the poison. There is NO consequences for using poison. And a buckler learns 2 poison naturally and usually has a 3rd from gear. Each one does ~1000 damage. That means a swashbuckler can do ~3000 damage without ever breaking their cloak! But wait there is more...one of those 1000 damages stops healing too. Now does this seem unfair to anyone else?

And remember they are still cloaked which mean their assassin strike (with more bleeding on top of poison) is rearing and ready to go for double its damage while the poison sucks your life away. So for those of you who are counting. That is 3000 free damage + roughly 4800 damage from 3 strikes + 1500 damage from 3 bleeding. Oh and if they have the fire axe throw on another 900 for good measure. That is 9,300-10,200 give or take a few hundred. Now some will argue that you can have fort gear and stack shields and all that garbage. But that wont save you from that level of damage. My buck has 2 forts and 4 lament/call shields and 2 25% shields and I still cant block that much damage on top of fog and no healing and swashbucklers who bring their own forts and moo robes to boot.

I am sorry but this has to be fixed. Poison NEEDS to break the cloak. Bucklers need to be forced to choose between assassin strike and poison. You cant allow them to have both that is just too over powered and unfair. Or they can assassin strike first THEN poison. But that at the very least gives you a small window to heal or retaliate. Please Mr. Ratbeard. Bonnie Anne. Please please fix this. All you have to do is give it a tiny bit of initial damage like fire elf or pretty much any DoT that wizard101 does.

Thank you for reading this post. Please respond with your thoughts.
Ok, lets take a look at the Dragon Axe of Doom, since this is the one weapon you expressed concerns about.
The weapon power is 235 ( this is base, I won't be factoring in bonuses from training or gear as these vary. )
235 + 840 = 1,075 + 243 x2 = 1,561 I don't know what damage Flames of Corruption does, nor the base chance of them appearing.
But, as anyone can see, you've inflated the numbers.
To re-cap from my previous post - the most damage you can take from any of the poison attacks is 910
the base amount of damage you can take from an Assassin's Strike using the Dragon Axe is 1,561
910 + 1,561 = 2,471, which is nothing like the 9,300 - 10,200 that you claim.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 7, 2015 wrote:
First of all this symbol ~ means approximately. And many bucklers have krokatopia as the place they were raised so for them its 199 for 5 rounds. So its 996 in other words 1000.

Second....you took assassin strike at face value forgetting its doubled when cloaked. So 840 x 2 = 1680. Do that 3 times with 3 cloaks and 3 assassin strikes does equal the numbers I told you . Also with the mojo mastery and krock birth it is 250+ for two rounds. So yes that does = 500.

Thirdly Levianths call and Krakens lament does NOTHING to reduce poison. It is magic damage so unless you have a fort you bucks DO gain the full brunt of that damage.

Fourth I never said those shields cant reduce some damage. But the fact of the matter is even with the reduced damage there is no way to block numbers that are that high.

Kind of puts it into perspective when your not in denial. So again I repeat. 996 x 3 = 2988 840 doubled (with cloak) = 1680 x 3 = 5040 add in bleeding at 500 damage x 3 = 1500 Add all those numbers together (and this time i took the conservative measure into considerations) and you get 9528. So no I did not exaggerate that much. But thank you for splitting hairs.

Add this the fact that bucks pack on a moo robe which they cast from the shadows. Cloaking their own team. And defense gear they use BEFORE coming out of cloak. And you have someone who is invincible.
Yes, I did forget to double the hidden bonus ( and I apologize, it was not my intent to leave it out ) - but this is only for weapon power so its only WP x2 + 840 + Bleeding x2, ( which means for only 2 turns not 3 ) which in the case of the Axe = 1,796 base.
Where do you get your facts that "many" Swashbucklers choose Krokotopia, its my understanding ( statistics collected by KI ) that the majority of SBs choose either MooShu or Scrimshaw as their origin. That you have faced a krok origin buckler doesn't mean all bucklers do this damage.
Also neither poisons nor Strikes, Backstab or Sneak Attacks stack.
You have inflated and exaggerated these numbers to unbelievable proportions.
We're not invincible by any means.
It's you who are prejudiced, not I. Everyone is free to farm Manchu to get the Robes and free to use the rewards of their efforts.
I wish my math teacher would have been convinced that 996 was actually a 1000. Would have made math easier.
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
anecorbie on Sep 7, 2015 wrote:
Ok, lets take a look at the Dragon Axe of Doom, since this is the one weapon you expressed concerns about.
The weapon power is 235 ( this is base, I won't be factoring in bonuses from training or gear as these vary. )
235 + 840 = 1,075 + 243 x2 = 1,561 I don't know what damage Flames of Corruption does, nor the base chance of them appearing.
But, as anyone can see, you've inflated the numbers.
To re-cap from my previous post - the most damage you can take from any of the poison attacks is 910
the base amount of damage you can take from an Assassin's Strike using the Dragon Axe is 1,561
910 + 1,561 = 2,471, which is nothing like the 9,300 - 10,200 that you claim.
Wow really? You still dont get it? Ok Ill try to make this simple. You cant just do 840 by itself you made that mistake on your first reply too. Do you not understand how cloaking doubles your hit? Look at assassin strike while cloaked and tell me what it says. ((Basically have to double that number to 1680.)) That is how much damage it does on the inital hit plus 500 damage worth of bleeding = 2180 for one cloaked assassin strike. And since most bucklers have at least 3 cloaks and at least 3 assassin strikes that means they hit with assassin strike from the shadows three times. Still with me? So 2180 x 3 is 6540 without poison. I have after all talked about this from the beginning in context of the entire match...not just one hit. So yes 6540 damage is with just hitting.

Add to that the poison. And fine lets say its 910 ((clearly you didn't understand the "where your raised" krokatopia boost thing I tried to explain so we can leave it at 910. I can assure you that MY swashbuckler does 199 damage for 5 rounds)) That is still 2730 damage if used on a pirate 3 times. And yes I have had that happen to me many times in pvp. Add to that the 6540 that follows once they strike shortly after poisoning from the shadows and that equals 9270 damage over the course of an entire match. So yeah my claim is pretty spot on.

Clearly your not understanding how cloak boosts your own hits or the number of times swashbucklers nail people from the shadows. Now if your implying that swashbucklers NEVER hit with assassin strike from the shadows then you would be right. But the only time i have seen them not hit from the shadows is cause they ran out of cloak or I am almost dead. So your entire post is skewed from square one. Your also not grasping that this is in context of the entire match. Meaning that this all happens 3 times at least. Maybe more depending on how people are set up. And just fyi I have a max swashbuckler and he is a champion, so I am talking from experience here.
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